ventolin^3 wrote:
messi wrote:He was running on a perfect track that day = not cinders.utter drivel
the head on shot, especially when germans trailed in shows how chewed up the track was in inner part lane 1
in addition, there was a 10k run on it prior to Ryun's race
Vento, I was referring to Terre Haute, IN 1966.
Propel water wrote:
And Ryun was a better kicker than Coe. But not as good as Morceli. Lol.
Not in the Olympics.
What has being an adulterer got to do with how fast someone can run 400m?
I don't care if he eats babies for breakfast, this is about running. I would imagine well over 50% of the male population has cheated on someone during their lives.
Cram also had an affair while married, but so what.
Some people are pretty desperate if they feel they cannot contribute anything but that in a sporting debate.
Peer Mediator wrote:Yes I did read it. For a start the question was rather broad and was about a range of distances
get a clue
if a 19y goes to 20y & describes it as an unbelievable year, you can damn well bet he has improved at all distances
No disrespect to his son, but saying he was faster in 67 forty+ years later doesn't make it so, even if Ryun snr said it
rubbish
it's best info we have & Ryun knows his body better than you
if he said it was unbelievable, you can bet he was faster from all his distances run, when in mood & rested
The evidence statistically doesn't support that fact. I'm not even saying that I don't think he was faster. I'm just saying it isn't certain and there is no actual evidence to support it as fact, as Ventolin does, and it is a complete stab in the dark to take a 440yd relay split from the previous year to give as a fact, a time 2 sec faster, the following year. I'm only doing exactly what Ventolin does, but without the abuse
more nonsense
you have the guy's own words on '67 season & then again fail to comprehend what has been told to you so many times :
Ryun ran nearly 50 races in '67 !!!
he often doubled/tripled on days & running virtually week in week out until a good bit of rest before his epic 3'33.1wr
that was 1st race that year he coud claim to have adequately prepared/rested for
When faced with the facts that Ryun only ran a 47.0 relay in early 67, Ventolin can claim Ryun would have been faster later on in the season of 67 and would have run faster at 400 or 800 based on no evidence whatsoever. He states it as fact
his relays were all early season & part of doubling/tripling days
he won all except the last one
he has clearly said that he was often in shape only a handful of times/y to run really fast which is only logical considering he ran nearly 50 races that year !
only a fool coud believe Ryun was in peak shape for each/every race in year
what fool coud believe that Ryun put in a successive series of miles of
3'53.2
4'09.3
4'09.6
4'03.5
4'07.5
3'51.1
& put in the same effort in each of those races ???
In the same vein, Coe has said that he could have run faster over 800 later in 81 than he did in June, and Ventolin dismisses it because he didn't happen to run any super fast races late in the season
utter drivel
he had 8 more opportunities after firenze to run his primary event & coudn't manage anything better than a 1'45.4 in a pure 800
he coudn't back that firenze up with anything over 800 let alone showing superior form
guys like kip/rudy have run wrs without any pacers, indoors or out but coe offered nothing after firenze
just 1 solo run of a 1'42+ wouda shown some back up to firenze
he showed absolutely nothing to show his 800 form after firenze was = to let alone better than his wr run
You can't have it both ways. The guy is a hypocrite. He can't dismiss one thing due to lack of evidence and then purport another as a fact with even less evidence
nonsense
Ryun ran no 800s at the peak of his '67 season
coe ran 8 more firenze & showed nothing in his 800s
even the supposed season peak of rome world cup was run in a pathetic 1'46.1
I personally don't doubt Ryun could have broken the 880 yd world record in 67, but I do not think anyone can claim he could have run 45.0, 1:39.9, 3:24 & 3:41 based primarily on a hand timed relay of 46.9 the previous year and of which there is no film (as far as we know) to watch it
more nonsense
can't you even do basic thinking ???
his 45.0 -> 3'24.2 shape is based on large number of pieces of evidence from that relay to considering conditions, splits & track of his 1500wr
only a fool coud think it was based on 1 piece of evidence
We already know that there are lots of mistakes made for split times from those period.
For example, it was stated for years (and even in the IAAF books) that Ryun's last 440 in his 2nd mile WR was 52.5. Then a copy of the race appears on Youtube a few years back, and it is clear that it was actually 53.7! That's a big difference
whatever mistake iaaf makes, what on earth has it got to do with Ryun ???
they didn't time any of his meets back then as there were no iaaf meets!
iaaf back then did absolutely nothing other than ratify wrs
Ventolin stated categorically last year that Ryun's last lap in Dusseldorf was 49.8
fool
the detailed contemporary german account has it at 49.7
He then had to (well, he didn't because he can never accept that he is wrong) eat humble pie when Said88 got a copy of the race and timed it as 50.6
you really are clueless
what evidence have you got that this guy actually has the vid ???
he hasn't given detailed splits of the early laps when repeatedly asked nor any description other than Ryun blasted the last 300 which we already knew
Amazing yes, but a big difference to his original claim
nonsense
no confirmation yet guy has vid
These nonsensical times are all based on a great deal of wishful thinking, supposition and a lot of massaging numbers.
utter drivel
those times are based on hard, rational, logical analysis, something clearly beyond you
Put down the bottle, Ventolin.
If you don't get help here, please get help.
Peer Mediator wrote:1. How many more names are you going to post under,
Ventolin? Only such an ego would write with such reverence about himself
nonsense
i post under 1 handle
2. Jim Ryun, via his son, via this site said he was faster in 67 to 66, but he didn't specify how much faster per event
in that absence we have to make our own judgement
no one expects the Legend to be making specific claims
3. There is no difference between the examples I brought up re Ryun and Coe. You must be somewhat obtuse if you cannot see the contradiction
what examples ?
that Ryun never ran a 400 or 800 at season peak in '67 but that coe ran 8 more 800s after firene & best in an actual 800 race was 1'45.4 ?
From May until the end of the summer in 1967, Ryun ran 4 880yd races, his fastest time being 1:47.2
again rubbish without qualification
he ran that before his golden spell & next day ran a 4'09.3
only a fool coud believe that was a serious 800 or was he runnning it in 4'09 shape ???
He ran 2 440yds in the same time frame and his fastest was 47.0
again more rubbish without considering circumstances
that being his 3rd race of day & 4th within 24 hours
he musta been 1/2 dead when he lined up for it
a 47.0 for 3rd is pretty good going without other info such as knowing how far behind on his leg & which leg it was
He improved his Mile WR by 0.1 and broke the 1500m WR.
he smashed the 1500wr by 2.5s
he ran the mile wr solo whereas other had some pacing & faster pace early on
the 2 mile wrs were no way in same league
But, based on a 1:47.2 you claim he could have run 1:39. You say he was faster in the summer, but the evidence is only over a mile and 1500. There is nothing below this distance to support him being faster over 400m, and you know it
more drivel
you have Ryun's own words that his '67 shape was unbelievable
anyone with even 1/2 a brain coud understand that for a 19y ole going to 20y that means some huge improvement in main distances, 800 & 1500
you have been told numerously that Ryun has said on vid there was only a handful of times/y he was ready to run fast
1'47/4'09 races weren't those
He had no cause to further break the 800 as he already had it and was 1.7sec faster than anyone else in history
nonsense
he had 8 more goes to run something respectable
he didn't even break 1'45 rest of year in a pure 800 !
For the rest of that season he ran 800s to win
nonsense
people were baying for fast 800s
he offered nothing
where was his 1'42 solo ???
but incidentally ran faster than 1:47.2 (Ryun's season best) 7 times after his WR in June
utterly meaningless rubbish
not only was Ryun's likely dirt track it wasn't at his peak - 4'09 mile the next day
A 2:12 1k is a lot closer to 800 and 400 than Ryun's 1500pb
i have no idea what this rubbish means
Ryun crushed the wr by 2.5s off a jog thru 300 in brutal 95F heat
So just to spell it out, you are using a best of 1:47.2 from Ryun in 67 as evidence he could run 1:39
utter nonsense
i'm using his improvement from his '66 form you fool
he was likely 1'41-mid shape in '66 but made "unbelievable" leap in '67
but the fact Coe ran a 1:44.5 is no evidence of anything!?
2'12 in an event which is virtually extinct
all that 1k indicated was that he was in likely 1'42-mid shape
go look up what iaaf points are for 2'12.18 & what that number is for 800
That is just nonsense
nonsene is claiming 2'12+ is same as firenze run
So the suggestion that Coe wasn't running fast later in the summer is rubbish
learn to read
i said his 800s after firenze were rubbish & offered no back up whatsoever to firenze
4. You take what people say that supports what you want to believe as gospel, yet dismiss any first hand quotes that are made which contradict you. Deanouk has stated on here that Coe told him he could have run 1:41.2 later in 81 and 1:41.0 on a mondo track of today
no offence to the lord
running crap in 8 more 800s after firenze & nothing better than 1'45.4 in a pure 800 offers absolute squat to back up that ludicrous claim
That is no real stretch of the imagination as he actually ran 1:41.7 running wide on a bend
busted timing & questionable track where virtually every elite set a fast time, sb or pb
no fast 800s after
chances in london & rome & nothing times
even the oslo promoter asked him to switch to 1k as he didn't believe coe had a snowball in hell's chance of matching firenze
You ridicule an athlete himself (who you clearly can't stand for your own reasons) who suggests he could have run just 0.5 sec faster, yet abuse and offend anyone who questions your claim that Ryun could have run 4.4secs faster than he actually ever did (and that was the season before!), and over 7 secs faster than he did that season, over the same distance
nonsense
coe had 8 more goes to run a fast 800 in '81 & offered nothing but a rubbish 1'45.4
Ryun ran no 800s in peak of '67 but has told us he was in unbelievable shape, so much better than his illness afflicted, prelim fatigued 1'44.3 from previous year
The same applies for 1500 and the mile. Coe has said he should have run 3:28.0 and a 3:44 mile
nonsense
his stockholm run looked good for about 3'29-flat
he was never in 3'44 shape
he ran his 3'47.3wr with a 55+ finish
where on earth was his 52+ or even 53+ finish to suggest 3'44
Ryun has never claimed he could have run 3:24 or 3:41
that's not his job
5. Ventolin DID state categorically on these boards that the German account was the most reliable source of the Dusseldorf race, and you abused and ridiculed various other posters who questioned it
fool
it was most detailed, contemporary account on web
When it was found to be wrong, you didn't even have the ba**s to apologise or admit you were wrong
wrong ?
how ???
a guy claims he has bought dvd but offers no splits or description of race
it's so far an unverified claim
The same with Carl Lewis's non altitude LJ record
what is this nonsense
lewis never broke the lj wr outdoors
I will take Said88's word over yours and your aliases any time.
from a guy who claims to have vid but offers no whole race splits or description
ventolin^3 wrote:
his stockholm run looked good for about 3'29-flat
he was never in 3'44 shape
Not what you said on here in 2011, when you said it was worth 3:28.3, even citing that the deduction for uneven pacing 'wasn't generous'.
"using coe's 38.5/13.9/ 41.7/ 15.0/ 44.1/15.1/29.3/14.3
-> 3'30.6
his gain is more from lack of drafting, which at ~ 1s/lap for 2.25 laps -> 3'28.3
which is ~ what people thought he could run at the time
method is not generous for elites'
And 3:28.3 converted to a mile is 3:44.9.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=3854217&thread=3834738#3854217You also wrote this in 2008: -
"that's no big surprise as coe probably had probably the quickest open 400 speed of any 1500 guy in history"
and,
"you forget coe ran the 400 very sparingly & maybe just that 1 open 400 back in '79 & none in '81 when at his peak
believing that a 1-off race is truely representative of an inexperienced 400 guy's absolute ability is wrong - his time woud be a starting point only
the suggestion was low-45 running a season of 400s exclusively, with no specific training - just off his 800/1500 ability"
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2459598&page=1Not forgetting your comments regarding synthetics tracks getting faster in 2006.
"coe ran 1'41 over 25y ago & the record has only moved on by 1/2s since then ( give him a more modern track & record may not have moved at all ! ) "
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22583&p=313642&hilit=+Coe+1%2741+25+y+ago+modern+track#p313642Just 3 examples of your hypocrisy in berating others on here for claiming things you yourself adhered too not so long ago.
Really difficult to take anyone seriously who contradicts themselves endlessly in order to make a point.
Will all your current views change so fleetingly in the not so distant future? If so, perhaps we shouldn't take them seriously now.
Deanouk wrote:Not what you said on here in 2011, when you said it was worth 3:28.3, even citing that the deduction for uneven pacing 'wasn't generous'.
"using coe's 38.5/13.9/ 41.7/ 15.0/ 44.1/15.1/29.3/14.3
-> 3'30.6
his gain is more from lack of drafting, which at ~ 1s/lap for 2.25 laps -> 3'28.3
which is ~ what people thought he could run at the time
method is not generous for elites'
And 3:28.3 converted to a mile is 3:44.9.
learn to read newer posts which re-evaluate
i have already posted something similar to this below before :
absolute perfect drafting, where the 2 bodies are virtually inseparable costs a theoretical maximum of 1.4s
http://myweb.lmu.edu/jmureika/track/wind/index.htmlfor 52s pace, put in 1/4 for 100m = 13.00
put in a wind-speed = to pace of 100/13.00 = 7.69m/s
that gives corrected time of 13.363s for 100m
that means drafting has theoretical maximum of ( 13.363 - 13.00 ) * 4 for 400m =
1.45s
the best anyone can do is to be 2m behind pacer otherwise their legs will tangle
if maximum possible is 1.45s, then i'm of belief 1s is very generous
1s/lap woud give bayi's solo 3'32.16 run after many rounds including a 1'44+, on a windy day with a 54+ start easily close to 3'28-flat for a fully rested, still day in oslo
i don't believe bayi was that quick, meaning 1s/lap for drafting looks generous
0.7s/lap looks much more likely if theoretical maximum is 1.45s
"that's no big surprise as coe probably had probably the quickest open 400 speed of any 1500 guy in history"
no
learn to read my recent post about finding out about Ryun's 46.9r
it was not on a pristine dirt track at 20y as i previously thought but on a quagmire at 18y
knowing this info makes Ryun the fastest 400'er of any 1500 guy in history
"you forget coe ran the 400 very sparingly & maybe just that 1 open 400 back in '79 & none in '81 when at his peak
believing that a 1-off race is truely representative of an inexperienced 400 guy's absolute ability is wrong - his time woud be a starting point only
the suggestion was low-45 running a season of 400s exclusively, with no specific training - just off his 800/1500 ability"
again
learn to read
new info, new opinions
i have looked at coe's litany of open/relay 400s on the lists since then
the info is clear enough to conclude that in '79/'80 he had ~ 46.0 speed & in '81 it was ~ 45.7
as i have told you so many times, his 400pb in '79 of 46.87 was a severe disappointment where i saw on tv, khasheef hammering a coe who crumbled badly
coe looked capable of 46-flat that day if he hadn't run so poorly
it appeared he'd been intimidated into submission by guy touted as possibly best 400 guy in the world at the time
it's a race you never talk about
also, difference between 46.0 & 45.7 is 0.3s which for 800m is 0.6s which nominally is his 800 improvement on paper between 2 wrs
Not forgetting your comments regarding synthetics tracks getting faster in 2006.
"coe ran 1'41 over 25y ago & the record has only moved on by 1/2s since then ( give him a more modern track & record may not have moved at all ! ) "
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22583&p=313642&hilit=+Coe+1%2741+25+y+ago+modern+track#p313642
who the hell are you quoting ???
do you see ventolin^3 as the handle ???
Just 3 examples of your hypocrisy in berating others on here for claiming things you yourself adhered too not so long ago
nonsense
2 posts from me only
1 post re : Ryun i already posted earlier that it was before i found out circumstances/date of his 46.9r
other post is due to re-assessing the actual drafting advantage which i have already posted before
Really difficult to take anyone seriously who contradicts themselves endlessly in order to make a point
nonsense
both those 2 points i have already addressed since those original posts
your brain seems to have absolutely no clue about observation that new info leads to new assessments
here's an example for your numbskull :
i never believed mo had anything better than 51s speed & therefore nothing faster based of simultaneous 26'30 of better than 3'30.65 last 3y
when i saw 50.8 last lap, that threw out all my beliefs, meaning his speed had to be at worst 50-flat, meaning his 1500 moved down to theoretical 3'28
learn something fool
nothing is inscribed in stone unless every single possible fact is known
Will all your current views change so fleetingly in the not so distant future? If so, perhaps we shouldn't take them seriously now.
fool
utter drivel as usual
if new info presents itself, new assessments have to be made
get that into your brain
Noble Kane wrote:Those relays on dirt were early season in 79 and 80. He was clearly much faster in 81
no
those indicate 46-flat form
both on anchor & winning 1st & losing other but no record if he got any drafting on anchor
the 46.4 anchor was in losing effort & likely got drafting from winner - coe's team 2nd in 3'11.2
that run is consistent with 46-flat if rested
his '81 shape was likely 45.7, consistent with 0.6s improvement on paper for his 800
So if he could run 45 high in those years he must have been in at least 45 mid in 81, possibly faster
nonsense
8 more pure 800s with best of 1'45.4 doesn't indicate better speed
Coe ran faster on dirt in 79 and 80 than Ryun ever did, including many races over the distance in 66 and 67
utter drivel
coe didn't run those relays on a quagmire unfit to sprint on
one requiring a conveyor belt for lj runway
& Ryun's 47.0 was 3rd race of day & 1 race day before
4th race in 24 hours
he musta been 1/2 dead lining up for that relay & came 3rd
You can say Ryun was faster in 67 than the previous year, but by same token Coe had to be faster too in height of summer 81
nonsense
8 800s with nothing better than 1'45.4 in a pure 800 says otherwise
Vent - it must drive you absolutely bat-shit crazier that you can't pin down the dirt v synthetic conversion. You've cited a few sources, but you generally do your own math. Based on physics, and the likely properties of the Berkeley track (for example), what is your probable formula for the difference in response for a mile run at 3:51 speed? And what is the theory behind your equation? I've cited your weight loss calculation to others, and your drafting logic appears reasonable.
I will agree with you that I've never seen an 11.6 thrown-down after 1200 at 3:00 pace, followed by a 24.9. I sent the Dusseldorf video to a friend of mine who raced Ryun back in the day (at 800/880), and he responded that Ryun's acceleration simply destroyed your ego.
cheers
Dr. Pepper wrote:
it must drive you absolutely bat-shit crazier
Well done.
"coe didn't run those relays on a quagmire unfit to sprint on"
A "quagmire" is an interesting characterization of a damp, packed cinder track that had been recently rained on.