Treadmill is great for longer distance. Marius Bakken and Ingrid Kristiansen used it a lot to increase their running efficiency.
Pros:
- Can run faster, no air resistance
- Easier to keep a certain pace, particularly longer intervals are easy to control
- Softer than asphalt/concrete
- If its cold outside -> varm muscles performes better than cold muscles
Cons:
- Need to to toe raises/leg raises afterwards
- Boring
- Little variation in terrain/grade
Hardloper wrote:
Okay here is the list of people that don't get it. Please keep this list handy so you can save time replying to their posts in the future.
legsss
.
No, I perfectly understand that there is no physical difference between ground and treadmill running. YOU are having trouble with reading comprehension.
Easyloper wrote:
I got 68% in high school physics.
Surprised you managed even that.
aerospace nerd wrote:
I wondered about this a while back so me and my friends got some beers and did some calculations.
Air resistance causes approx 3% decrease in pace at 3min/km pace (no wind). That is 54 seconds on a 10k, not such a small difference. And the force induced by wind resistance increases quadratically, so if you have a wind 1x your pace in your face (V = 2x pace) you get 4x the resistance vs no wind, and arguably you get some wind at some point during every run.
Then there are some small differences in the forces at play when your foot strikes a treadmill vs the ground.
1. The treadmill has the capacity to do work on your foot. Think about a bounding heel striker here. When his foot strikes the treadmill it slightly decelerates the band and the motor reacts by upping the torque. We measured this current increase with a ammeter and it is not small, and for our biggest heal-striking dude the motor did a lot of extra work.
2. The key that we can take from (1) is that there is a deceleration occurring in the band. In the extreme case think of a treadmill with a very weak motor that stopped the instant your foot hit the band and continued at 3min/km pace while you were in the air. You can't really claim that you are running 3min/km pace. The reality is much more mild but small decelerations summed over a long run add up.
So of course we wanted to know, how much can you really cheat on a treadmill? Well, we got our beefcake heal striker to take advantage of the treadmill, and oh did he. We got him running 3min/km (max on this treadmill), the poor motor whining in pain every time his treetrunk of a leg slammed the belt. For me, at 140lbs, I felt like I could cheat a little bit (at the expense of my knees) but at 3min/km I still felt/looked like I was running hard.
So it would be neat to set up some sensors and actually measure this stuff, but why. I asked some elite marathoners about this and a few said running on a treadmill with a 1-2% incline roughly matches the effort of running outdoors, but they are still very different things.
That's interesting. Do you think taking longer strides allows you to "cheat" more? I read somewhere that extended running on treadmills tends to increase stride length, which might mean your body was naturally taking advantage of the motor weakness.
Ho Hum wrote:
That's interesting. Do you think taking longer strides allows you to "cheat" more? I read somewhere that extended running on treadmills tends to increase stride length, which might mean your body was naturally taking advantage of the motor weakness.
Its actually usually the other way around, running a lot on treadmill tend to shorten and make your stride more efficient.
Gamera wrote:
I found this statement in a "For Beginners Only" column by a Susan Paul on RunnersWorld.com:
"To answer your questions, treadmill running and road running are not quite the same. Running on the treadmill is easier than running outdoors, for a variety of reasons. One reason is that the treadmill belt assists leg turnover, making it easier to run faster. So most runners find that their pace on the treadmill doesn’t correlate to their road pace. Also, some of the soft tissue conditioning or “hardening” that occurs with road running does not occur with treadmill running because the plate or base on the treadmill "gives" more than road surfaces. And, obviously there are no weather conditions to deal with when running indoors."
Wow! I think she is really saying the same thing as some of the posters on this thread! Shame on you, Runners World. (to give her credit, I guess the parts about a softer surface and weather conditions are correct)
I used to puzzle about this question a long time ago. I ound it helped to imagine a slightly fancier treadmill than your average gym club one. Imagine a treadmill that is moving along at a steady 8mph, that has a surface of ashphalt, or simulated grass, or whatever. Now imagine that it's a lot bigger than an ordinary treadmill - let's say a couple of miles in all directions. It even has trees and houses and stuff on it. The people who built went so far as to figure out a way to make the air above the treadmill move along in unison with the treadmill (except for minor, random disturbances that would just feel like breezes). Everything you could see would be mounted on the treadmill (except the clear blue sky). How would you know you were on a treadmill?
Well, you wouldn't. You wouldn't notice your foot getting dragged behind you slightly when you landed at the end of each step, you wouldn't be able to just kind of hop up and down and have the ground move under you - because those things don't happen on a treadmill.
But the force for this huge treadmill would still be generated by outside energy.
Hardloper wrote:
400metersoffseason wrote:In addition to the air resistance I'm convinced the mechanics of running on a treadmill are slightly different. Basically you can cheat the treadmill by bouncing excessively. Contrary to what an above poster said, the time spent in the air does vary among runners. If you have more vertical motion, it will take you slightly longer to back fall down onto your other foot. It's not going to be a huge difference, but it's actually bad running form, as the goal is to go forward, not up.
Great idea! That must be why it's easier to run east to west than west to east. Since the Earth is rotating under you (at about 1000 mph depending on latitude), all you really have to do is get up off the ground and let the Earth move beneath you.
Maybe that's why the Boston Marathon course is so tough, because it goes west, to east?
Now your physics is really bad. You neglected the effect of gravity. That is why we dont see the earth spinning by at 1000mph when we jump. But when we jump on a treadmill, we do see the tread going by our feet.
Treadmill Guru wrote:
Gamera wrote:I found this statement in a "For Beginners Only" column by a Susan Paul on RunnersWorld.com:
"To answer your questions, treadmill running and road running are not quite the same. Running on the treadmill is easier than running outdoors, for a variety of reasons. One reason is that the treadmill belt assists leg turnover, making it easier to run faster. So most runners find that their pace on the treadmill doesn’t correlate to their road pace. Also, some of the soft tissue conditioning or “hardening” that occurs with road running does not occur with treadmill running because the plate or base on the treadmill "gives" more than road surfaces. And, obviously there are no weather conditions to deal with when running indoors."
Wow! I think she is really saying the same thing as some of the posters on this thread! Shame on you, Runners World. (to give her credit, I guess the parts about a softer surface and weather conditions are correct)
I used to puzzle about this question a long time ago. I ound it helped to imagine a slightly fancier treadmill than your average gym club one. Imagine a treadmill that is moving along at a steady 8mph, that has a surface of ashphalt, or simulated grass, or whatever. Now imagine that it's a lot bigger than an ordinary treadmill - let's say a couple of miles in all directions. It even has trees and houses and stuff on it. The people who built went so far as to figure out a way to make the air above the treadmill move along in unison with the treadmill (except for minor, random disturbances that would just feel like breezes). Everything you could see would be mounted on the treadmill (except the clear blue sky). How would you know you were on a treadmill?
Well, you wouldn't. You wouldn't notice your foot getting dragged behind you slightly when you landed at the end of each step, you wouldn't be able to just kind of hop up and down and have the ground move under you - because those things don't happen on a treadmill.
But the force for this huge treadmill would still be generated by outside energy.
That's right! And if it were BIG enough that would be a whole lot of outside energy. Probably more than what it takes to run under REAL conditions. As a result, after subtracting it out (and don't forget to carry the one) your supposed treadmill runner would actually be burning NEGATIVE calories on this so-called run. That's right, he/she would be getting energy injected into them by the system as a whole. And that's even before taking into account the solar powering and some shit!
The outside electrical energy is what is keeping you in one place, rather than having your body move forward and hitting the wall in your gym or basement.
Add Treadmill Guru to the list.
Physics Professor Runner wrote:
The outside electrical energy is what is keeping you in one place, rather than having your body move forward and hitting the wall in your gym or basement.
Yes it makes sense that it is not helping you run.
Physics Professor Runner wrote:
The outside electrical energy is what is keeping you in one place, rather than having your body move forward and hitting the wall in your gym or basement.
Butt you are NOT hitting the wall in your gym or basement. Therefore you ARE absorbing all that energy. Run on this giant treadmill often enough and you'll never have to eat again - every calorie you will ever need supplied for FREE (courtesy of the solar powered treadmill or some shit).
googlymoogly wrote:
I also realize I'm wasting my time with this response, but some future advice might be to not be such an arrogant a$$ about your knowledge of a subject. If someone is off base on something and absolutely refuses to reason that is one thing, but when you belittle anyone that has a misunderstanding about a topic (on which it is clear many haven't fully thought it through) you just come off like an a$$. If I did that in every conversation I had with someone on a topic that I have more knowledge than they do, I'm not sure what the point would be.
That being said, kudos to you; I'll award you a physics gold star that you can put on your fridge to keep you feeling proud of yourself for your superiority. Good work to take the time to call out anyone that you were able to beat into submission with your physics knowledge.
Thanks. You're off the list.
Do you think I'm not aware that I'm an arrogant ass on LetsRun? (I also have superior computer knowledge, which is why I know how to post the word "ass" and others have to type "a$$.") However, that is only because of my frustrations with the anonymity of this message board, and only when other people are being jerks. In real life I am not that way at all, quite the opposite. If this message board ever switches to another system where people are accountable for their own posts, I won't be that way at all, either, just brutally honest. However, in the current state of LetsRun where the message board encourages people to be asses to each other, I am forced to join in.
Hardloper wrote:
Thanks. You're off the list.
Do you think I'm not aware that I'm an arrogant ass on LetsRun? (I also have superior computer knowledge, which is why I know how to post the word "ass" and others have to type "a$$.") However, that is only because of my frustrations with the anonymity of this message board, and only when other people are being jerks. In real life I am not that way at all, quite the opposite. If this message board ever switches to another system where people are accountable for their own posts, I won't be that way at all, either, just brutally honest. However, in the current state of LetsRun where the message board encourages people to be asses to each other, I am forced to join in.
Actually, nobody is forcing you to do anything.
Good effort though in trying to make others, or better yet - the system, accountable for your actions.
aerospace nerd wrote:
2. The key that we can take from (1) is that there is a deceleration occurring in the band. In the extreme case think of a treadmill with a very weak motor that stopped the instant your foot hit the band and continued at 3min/km pace while you were in the air. You can't really claim that you are running 3min/km pace. The reality is much more mild but small decelerations summed over a long run add up.
So of course we wanted to know, how much can you really cheat on a treadmill? Well, we got our beefcake heal striker to take advantage of the treadmill, and oh did he. We got him running 3min/km (max on this treadmill), the poor motor whining in pain every time his treetrunk of a leg slammed the belt. For me, at 140lbs, I felt like I could cheat a little bit (at the expense of my knees) but at 3min/km I still felt/looked like I was running hard.
I once tried running on a hotel treadmill with a belt that was slipping badly on the rollers such that it would slow down a lot with each foot strike. I quit after a minute or two out of fear of injury. Imagine every step is like that first step onto an airport moving walkway so you're always a little off balance. On a quality treadmill in good repair, the effect isn't noticeable, but it's probably always there to some extent.
Should be noted again wrote:
Actually, nobody is forcing you to do anything.
Good effort though in trying to make others, or better yet - the system, accountable for your actions.
I like your irony. You could make a great LetsRun message board poster on here. Do you post here often?
aerospace nerd wrote:
I wondered about this a while back so me and my friends got some beers and did some calculations.
Air resistance causes approx 3% decrease in pace at 3min/km pace (no wind). That is 54 seconds on a 10k, not such a small difference. And the force induced by wind resistance increases quadratically, so if you have a wind 1x your pace in your face (V = 2x pace) you get 4x the resistance vs no wind, and arguably you get some wind at some point during every run.
Then there are some small differences in the forces at play when your foot strikes a treadmill vs the ground.
1. The treadmill has the capacity to do work on your foot. Think about a bounding heel striker here. When his foot strikes the treadmill it slightly decelerates the band and the motor reacts by upping the torque. We measured this current increase with a ammeter and it is not small, and for our biggest heal-striking dude the motor did a lot of extra work.
2. The key that we can take from (1) is that there is a deceleration occurring in the band. In the extreme case think of a treadmill with a very weak motor that stopped the instant your foot hit the band and continued at 3min/km pace while you were in the air. You can't really claim that you are running 3min/km pace. The reality is much more mild but small decelerations summed over a long run add up.
So of course we wanted to know, how much can you really cheat on a treadmill? Well, we got our beefcake heal striker to take advantage of the treadmill, and oh did he. We got him running 3min/km (max on this treadmill), the poor motor whining in pain every time his treetrunk of a leg slammed the belt. For me, at 140lbs, I felt like I could cheat a little bit (at the expense of my knees) but at 3min/km I still felt/looked like I was running hard.
So it would be neat to set up some sensors and actually measure this stuff, but why. I asked some elite marathoners about this and a few said running on a treadmill with a 1-2% incline roughly matches the effort of running outdoors, but they are still very different things.
This is the first good refutation of my point, but deals more with the reality of an imperfect treadmill rather than the theory. Obviously if the belt speeds up while you're n the air and slows down when you are on the belt, the thing will register more distance than you have actually covered. A good treadmill with a strong motor and low friction deck will minimize this effect to an amount that I don't know. I still reject your conclusion that they are "very different things".
Hardloper wrote:
Should be noted again wrote:Actually, nobody is forcing you to do anything.
Good effort though in trying to make others, or better yet - the system, accountable for your actions.
I like your irony. You could make a great LetsRun message board poster on here. Do you post here often?
I like that you are a loser who does not take accountability for your own actions. Do you come here often?
Should be noted again wrote:
I like that you are a loser who does not take accountability for your own actions. Do you come here often?
I do, and I am one of the consistently nicest people on this message board.
You don't have to use your glutes as much to push off, and can instead focus on just pulling your legs back up. You use your hip flexors/hamstrings more.