Alan Webb = a runner of sporadic brilliance? Are you joking Mr. Johnson?

Impending Choke wrote:

First of all, this is not scientifically true. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of human energy systems will agree that unless you've gone to the well and then some, there is always the potential to sprint to the finish.

Yes, it IS scientifically true. Thank you for agreeing with me. If you have not gone to the well and then some, then you have not applied full effort to the race. Thus, you will energy leftover for a sprint finish.

jsj wrote:

Yes, it IS scientifically true. Thank you for agreeing with me. If you have not gone to the well and then some, then you have not applied full effort to the race. Thus, you will energy leftover for a sprint finish.

Ugh, define "sprint finish," because everyone no matter how spent can usually rally a little something at the end.

Hardloper wrote:

george oscar bluth wrote:

He finished f*cking 8th, which I believe was his best finish ever in a World Championship or Olympic games. EIGHTH.

Oh, and in an extremely deep World Championship field, EIGHT IS PRETTY DAMN GOOD DON'T YOU THINK

Do you think if it were not for the fact he was American, you would have even noticed him

Of course it pretty damn good but he had the ability to do better. How can you run such times then be running so much slower when still young. He lost it and lost form is something any coach would love to know the answer to, you can't it comes from within

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Do you think if it were not for the fact he was American, you would have even noticed him

If he was an African running 3:53 in the mile at age 18, we would have never noticed him either.

It is unrealistic to expect anything more than that. How many other 3:30 1500 runners have failed to medal in a global final? I would guess the vast majority of them. I'm sure he "could have" gone faster if everything went perfectly, but you could say that about basically every runner. Bernard Lagat probably "could have" won an Olympic gold if he had been healthy in 2008. Nothing ever goes perfectly, it's unreasonable to expect it to.

It is not unrealistic to expect an American Record holder to place better than 8th in a world championship at some point in his career. Sure things can go awry at championships, but they have them nearly every year. That's a lot of chances.

a separate piece wrote:

It is not unrealistic to expect an American Record holder to place better than 8th in a world championship at some point in his career. Sure things can go awry at championships, but they have them nearly every year. That's a lot of chances.

Yes it is. Let's look at how the other AR holders have done:

1. Ritzenhein - 6th

2. Rupp - 2nd

3. Hall - 10th

4. Kennedy - 6th

5. Lagat - 1st

6. Kannouchi - N/A

Most of them are perennial 6th-8th type guys. At any given moment there are probably at least 8 guys with PRs under the AR in any given distance event.

Hardloper wrote:

whatt//// wrote:

ummmm......... ever heard of Said Aouita

Not quite:

800m:

391 1:43.84 Alan Webb USA 13.01.83 1rA Heusden-Zolder 28.07.2007

406 1:43.86 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 1 Köln 21.08.1988

Every time we have this discussion I'm going to bring up Nicholas Kemboi: 1:46/26:30/2:08. Yes he did this over many years but no, Webb's range is not totally unparalleled.

What's more likely is that American runners have fewer financial constraints and so can just run whatever is best for their schedules, whereas many African runners go into the races where the money are, so their PRs are all over the map.

that's not really a true reflection on bernie

those 800s were low-key meets usually in early season

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Not usually early season:

2009 1:46.84 Lausanne 07 JUL

2005 1:47.07 Kingston, JAM 07 MAY

2004 1:46.96 Walnut, CA 18 APR

2003 1:46.00 Berlin 10 AUG

2002 1:46.90 Palo Alto, CA 30 MAR

2000 1:46.85 Helsinki 15 JUN

1999 1:46.06 Köln 08 AUG

1998 1:46.02 Paris 29 JUL

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1'42-flat to low-1'43

i'd bet my bottom $ he was no slower than low-1'43.'

I like to bet and make money off people like you high 1:44's at best.

Here is your reply:

He closed in mid/high 1:47 moron

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How did Mo close in only 1 second off your 400m prediction

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Here is your reply:

You know nothing idiot that's just for 400m

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Actually you an only sprint flat out for 6/7 seconds. The real reason at least one of them is on EPO or similar

You will still come back swith something else just like you did when you had your junior Geb We trunning at close to WR pace on short xc and just like you did when you forgot where the start line is for a 1500m. You forgot becuase you've never, run, you've never coached you've just sat whatching on tv while the rest of us are doing it

Closing in

Shit, I don't know why that keeps happening to me, I type a long post out and only a couple words of it show up. Anyways, will re-type it later.

Okay, found it: Closing within ~1 second off of 400m ability is not unreasonable at all. First of all, remember that you get a rolling start which gives you another ~1 second boost, so 49-high 400m probably means 48-high rolling start. Then throw in the fact that Mo ran the first 11.5 laps essentially at half-marathon pace, and then kicking in 59.89, two seconds off "fresh" ability, isn't unreasonable to me.

I think you're closer with Bernie, ukathleticscoach. I don't see 1:42 or 1:43-low coming from him, surely he should have bettered 1:46 as some of those races had good competition. Webb on the other hand won his 800 over Gary Reed, who won silver that year, so his time was hard-earned. Also, Lagat's 53-high/54-low kick in his 1500 PR isn't that significant when you consider his PR is 55.0 pace.

If either of these guys ever race an 800 again I will definitely take bets, or place bets, or whatever.

Closing within ~1 second off of 400m ability is not unreasonable at all. First of all, remember that you get a rolling start which gives you another ~1 second boost, so 49-high 400m probably means 48-high rolling start. Then throw in the fact that Mo ran the first 11.5 laps essentially at half-marathon pace, and then kicking in 50.89, two seconds off "fresh" ability, isn't unreasonable to me.'

Fair point but Vent has his ability at 50. What worries me is 12.9 100m in any conditions and somehow managing 50.89 even when fresh. I saw his lack of power on the superstars bike race. He would stuggle to break 12.5 in perfect conditions. How do you legally compensate for lack of power/stength/speed ?

Hardloper wrote:I think you're closer with Bernie, ukathleticscoach. I don't see 1:42 or 1:43-low coming from him, surely he should have bettered 1:46 as some of those races had good competition

he didn't run a 800 in an elite field in '01 or '04

bernie is a much superior version of baala who had a 3'28.9pb

baala had a poor 1'45.9pb over 800 by mid-'02 (set in virtually unknown villneuve d'ascq in june '02 ) & finally waited 'til last race of year in rieti to enter an elite field 800

it is obvious whatever his time was, it wouda been run off 1500 training as he simply hadn't raced any elite field 800 all year ( apart from that 1'45.9pb above ) - no 800 entered in oslo/rome/brussels/berlin/monaco/etc

that rieti race was fast & he had to run fast, but still only came 5th

his time though was

1'43.15 !!!

if an eventual 3'28.9 guy coud run 1'43.1 off almost certain primary 1500 training ( no golden league 800s run ), then it's pretty damn certain that a much quicker 1500 guy in bernie in '01 or '04 couda at worst expected to match it

( i watched that rieti '02 meet on tv but unfortunately didn't pay any attention to baala's effort as me along with probably 99% of the viewers weren't really interested in a "strength" 1500 guy's effort in a 800

in retrospect, baala's 1'43.1 is on similar lines to mo's 3'28 - a "strength" guy getting into a fast race & having to run fast at under-distance off primary longer distance training

i can see no reason why bernie woudn't have been significantly quicker over 800 than baala )

ukathleticscoach wrote:Not usually early season:

2009 1:46.84 Lausanne 07 JUL

2005 1:47.07 Kingston, JAM 07 MAY

2004 1:46.96 Walnut, CA 18 APR

2003 1:46.00 Berlin 10 AUG

2002 1:46.90 Palo Alto, CA 30 MAR

2000 1:46.85 Helsinki 15 JUN

1999 1:46.06 Köln 08 AUG

1998 1:46.02 Paris 29 JUL

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fool

3 of those were before june & show me his 800 in golden league meet in '01, his 3'26 year

I like to bet and make money off people like you high 1:44's at best

does your peabrain think baala was worth nearly 2s better over 800 ???

Actually you an only sprint flat out for 6/7 seconds. The real reason at least one of them is on EPO or similar

i have no idea what this drivel is

You forgot becuase you've never, run, you've never coached you've just sat whatching on tv while the rest of us are doing it

from probably the biggest idiot on this board

come back to me boy, when you have travelled to watch 3 olympics & watched most every diamond/golden league race since inception & most any other big euro race worth talking about since '90 onwards on satellite

Count me in as one the fans who feels Webb has had some nice victories but in general is a big disappointment. Rupp, Manazano and Centro do not have near the early running resume that Webb had but all have a World or Olympic medals. Once he ran that 3:53 high school mile he set the bar really high for himself and never could reach World or Olympic medal expectations

[quote]Hardloper wrote:

Most of them are perennial 6th-8th type guys.

One finish in the top 8 at the worlds does not make you a perennial top 8 finisher.