Is Larry Bird the Greatest NBA Player Of All Time?

Cornbread didn't have an impact? He was the 81 finals mvp dumbass. If you think he made no impact you should never talk about basketball again. Maxwell also played a major role in game 7 of the 1984 series when Boston beat the Lakers. He scored over 20 points. If you don't think he made an impact then you are ignoring reality. Gerald Henderson? M.L. Carr? Chris Ford? You don't know shit do you?

It's okay Malmo, you are clearly out of your element. The turnaround all on Bird? Bullshit. The championships because of Bird? F*** that. I wish we could go back in time and have Jordan play Bird one on one. Horace Grant isn't a future Hall of Famer. So Jordan had Pippen, who he helped greatly. Second run he also had Rodman who scored 1-2 points a game. Sure, he rebounded, but he scored and rebounded while with the Pistons (who also bitch slapped the Celtics). The last run with the Bulls they had virtually nothing offensively except for Jordan and Pippen. None of Bird's championship teams were so thin. You are wrong. Admit it. Bird simply wasn't on Jordan's level.

malmo wrote:

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

And since you are so clearly a Bird historian, I don't need to remind you of Larry's quote about MJ after the game. I think that quote says a lot (larry didn't kiss ass. ever.)

(and the quote didn't mention anything about double overtime, or the sweep)

I'll remind you of the nature about athletes. They are sure to be polite and compliment each other.

What a COMPLETE crock of shit. OK, tell me about how everyone, every single player in the league will point to (fill in your favorite player name) as the best player in the league, the best player in the history of the league, and clearly playing at a level nobody else could even think about reaching. Because that is how Jordan was viewed by his peers (including Magic and Larry).

Malmo can speak for himself. As for me -- C'mon nbafanatic:

a) Ad hominem

b) Strawmen galore -- that's not what Malmo said.

c) Red herring -- nobody is disputing Cornbread's later contributions

d) Bird WAS largely responsible for the 32 game turnaround. Closest thing to a controlled experiment as you'll get in the NBA. Nearest analog? Tim Duncan joining the Spurs (36 games) -- As with Maxwell and Tiny, They had David Robinson and some other pretty good players too.

e) Why do you insist on making one on one the criterion?

I will admit to being wrong in one respect: why should I bother to respond to a fool?

chikin wrote:

Old Man Runner wrote:

Yes.

If you look at his stats, while he did not put up huge numbers, he was a consummate teammate, floor leader and could be counted on to make the big shot. The opposing team had to account for Bird at all times and he was constantly double teamed. He was an excellent free throw shooter and shot a high percentage from the field, as well.

Sounds like a description of Jordan.... except Jordan did put up the huge numbers.

Not as big as Oscar Robertson or Wilt -- who is actually the greatest.

The Big O AVERAGED a triple-double one season. People go nuts now when someone does it once.

Wilt rewrote every record he wanted -- and probably shagged your momma.

dean moriarty wrote:

My mind is reeling. Why don't you give an example of Lebron shutting someone down before you give him the title of best shutdown defender ever?

Luckiest MVP ever Derrick Rose didn't do so well tonight when Lebron started guarding him. Actually, he is really being exposed this whole series.

A-E, all crap. Maxwell, contributed from start to finish in his Celtics career. That is why they retired his number. I also listed at least three other players that performed spectacularly in the turnaround season. {iont being, bird had A LOT of help. Was he the best player on the team? Sure. Would it have happened without the other additions to the team? No.

One on one? I like how Bird supporters hate this question. Why do I bring it up? Because even the biggest Bird backers cant say with a straight face that he could match Jordan one on one. Mostly I just find it humorous.

The Celtics added important players before, during and after Bird's first season. The Bulls added shit before or during Jordan first year. Yet, he still posted great performances against them during the playoffs. Don't blame him for having a crap team surrounding him. You name Pippen and Grant but that wasnt until Jordan's 4th season. Bird didn't have to wait that long to have quality teammates so the Celtics won earlier. Jordan won a lot more in the long run. Moreover, he was superior in almost every facet of the game. But say what you want... The record books tell the real story.

You are actually wrong. Bird was the differentiating factor for the Celtics, not Cornbread. Did Jordan win a title before Pippin? No. He was still the main guy. Bird was very much on Jordan's level as are Magic and Russell, and Wilt. As for Bird vs Magic, Bird was somewhat better than Magic '87 and earlier, Magic was far superior after '87. Jordan didn't win while either of those guys were in the league btw.

Nope, its Jordan. All he did was win on the biggest stage and thats all that matters. 6 championships, 6 finals mvps, 5 season mvps, 1x defensive player of the year.

My top 10 is this alphabetically, based on overall skills, accolades and awards.

Bird

Duncan

Jordan

Kareem

Kobe

Magic

Oscar

Russell

Shaq

Wilt

If you actually average Oscars stats for his first FIVE, yes FIVE, years in the league you will see that he averaged a triple double.

[quote]a journalist wrote:

The Big O AVERAGED a triple-double one season. People go nuts now when someone does it once.

quote]

Listen, the conversation about the greatest basketball player ever begins and ends with Wilt Chamberlain.

He averaged 30.1 and 22.9 rebounds per game - for his career.

He averaged 50 ppg one year. He averaged more than 27 rebounds a game twice.

He NEVER fouled out of a game, averaging nearly 46 minutes a game for his career. He led the NBA in assists from the center position one year, averaging 4.4 assists for his career from the center position.

People talk about how Bill Russell had Chamberlain's number. Nonsense, he actually played better against Russell, averaging 30 ppg and 28 rpg for his career against Russell.

He was so good and so dominant that they had to change the rules because of him. They widened the lane. They banned offensive goal-tending (legal still in international play).

How about this: prior to Wilt when shooting a free throw you could jump from the free throw line and as long as your shot went in before you hit the floor, it counted. There was only 1 problem with Wilt: he could DUNK from the free throw line without a running start. So they banned that too. Don't believe me? Look it up.

All these other players mentioned - Bird, Jordan, Magic, etc. They were great. But there was, and will only ever be, 1 Wilt. The best.

I understand you can't control your competition, and you can't down grade him on that but as incredible as Wilt's stats are, look at the sorry bastards he was playing against. One thing you left out was during one of his seasons, i think it was the one he never fouled out, he played EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of every game.

I'm joining this thread. wrote:

Nope, its Jordan. All he did was win on the biggest stage and thats all that matters. 6 championships, 6 finals mvps, 5 season mvps, 1x defensive player of the year.

My top 10 is this alphabetically, based on overall skills, accolades and awards.

Bird

Duncan

Jordan

Kareem

Kobe

Magic

Oscar

Russell

Shaq

Wilt

Replace Hakeem for Duncan and I pretty much agree.

Did Bird win a title before Parrish and McHale? Also, Magic beat Bird in the finals first in '85, then again in '87. Once again, Bird was teamed with future Hall of Famers his second season and was teamed with Celtic greats like Maxwell his first season. Jordan wasn't teamed with Pippen and Grant until his 4th season. In the meantime, he put up stats Bird could only dream of. But it is a team sport and the Bulls needed a better surrounding team. When that happened the Celtics and lakers became instantly irrelevant and the Bulls won EVERYTHING.

nbafanatic wrote:

Cornbread didn't have an impact? He was the 81 finals mvp dumbass. If you think he made no impact you should never talk about basketball again. Maxwell also played a major role in game 7 of the 1984 series when Boston beat the Lakers. He scored over 20 points. If you don't think he made an impact then you are ignoring reality. Gerald Henderson? M.L. Carr? Chris Ford? You don't know shit do you?

Cornbread came to Boston and the result was 32 and 29 win seasons. Bird comes in and they win 61 games.

Yes, Cornbreads MVP is the result of Bird's presense. Houstons concetration on Bird freed up Maxwell underneath, Anyone with a brain understands that. Bird averaged 21.9/14.0/6.1 in the 1981 playoffs. Cornbread averaged 16.1/7.4/2.7 in the plyoffs 17.7/9.5/2.8 in the finals. Additional Bird averaged 44 minutes in the 81 playoff, Cornbread 35 minutes.

That's not a typo. In the 1981 playoffs Bird averaged 21.9/14.0/6.1 and 2.3 steals per game! That despite his hot hand going cold in the finals against Houston.

1st game 1981 finals two highlights of the ages for Bird at 3:10 and the very end.

Bird ices the Bulls in the 81 plyoffs

I'm joining this thread. wrote:

If you actually average Oscars stats for his first FIVE, yes FIVE, years in the league you will see that he averaged a triple double.

[quote]a journalist wrote:

The Big O AVERAGED a triple-double one season. People go nuts now when someone does it once.

quote]

This is why it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare between eras. When the big O was avg a triple double, the game was played at a much faster pace with teams putting up over 30% more shots than they do now.

To compare Oscar's triple double season to lebrons last year in cleveland is very close.

Oscar got 17.85% rebounds 12.5/70...42.2% assists 11.4/27...and 25% pts 30.8/123.1

Lebron got 17.38% rebounds 7.3/42...39.1% assists 8.6/22....and 29.1% pts 29.7/102.

If you plugged lebrons % into the speed they played then, Lebrons numbers come up 12.1 rebounds, 10.55 assists, and 35.8 pts. Of course this is all speculation.

Remember that Chamberlain AVERAGED 50.4 PTS AND 25.7 REBOUNDS that year.

This is why it is IMPOSSIBLE to compare between eras. When the big O was avg a triple double, the game was played at a much faster pace with teams putting up over 30% more shots than they do now.

To compare Oscar's triple double season to lebrons last year in cleveland is very close.

Oscar got 17.85% rebounds 12.5/70...42.2% assists 11.4/27...and 25% pts 30.8/123.1

Lebron got 17.38% rebounds 7.3/42...39.1% assists 8.6/22....and 29.1% pts 29.7/102.

If you plugged lebrons % into the speed they played then, Lebrons numbers come up 12.1 rebounds, 10.55 assists, and 35.8 pts. Of course this is all speculation.

Remember that Chamberlain AVERAGED 50.4 PTS AND 25.7 REBOUNDS that year.

I think that you are on the right track by trying to normalize numbers when possible and adjust for relative dominance in an era, in a Bill Jamesian fashion. Players adjust to the rules, the rules change according to the players. Countervailing forces produce competitive equilibrium until someone comes along with an unbeatable edge, etc.

1980-1981 Celtics had Bird, McHale and Parrish. Jordan wasn't there yet. Im not impressed with that series victory at all. Cornbread (Maxwell), Gerald henderson, Tiny Archibald, Chris Ford and M.L. Carr were all acquired in a two year span with Bird. /the year beofre Bird the Celtics had a power struggle resulting in the team being sold. The Celtics finally collapsed when a trade was made for Bob McAdoo that divided the team. Maxwell went 19ppg and near 10rpg before Bird. Then you add Bird, Henderson and Carr and presto!! Better team. 80-81 they add McHale and Parrish and win it all. Jordan was drafted but the Bulls did little else for years. When they finally found some players to surround him with he succeeded. however, even before that, he put up performances beyond Larry Bird's ability. In totality, Bird's career doesn't match Jordan's by a long shot. You want to shorten the debate to Bird's early years and jordan's first six seasons. However, a lot more basketball was played than that. and in totality Bird's career simply doesn't compete at all with jordan's. Moreover, Jordan had little trouble producing against the Celtics by himself. He simply had no help.

I'm joining this thread. wrote:

I understand you can't control your competition, and you can't down grade him on that but as incredible as Wilt's stats are, look at the sorry bastards he was playing against. One thing you left out was during one of his seasons, i think it was the one he never fouled out, he played EVERY SINGLE MINUTE of every game.

Yup, you can't control who you play against, but Wilt played EVEN BETTER against Bill Russell, who most observers agree is the best defensive center (if not best defensive player) of all time.

Yes, you're correct...one season he AVERAGED 48.5 minutes a game. Wilt NEVER fouled out of a game - not just in one season, but for his career. Never. Ever. That is such an absurd stat, especially for a guy of his defensive prowess. He picked up a measley 2 fouls a game over the course of his career.

He holds a total of 72 NBA records, 63 of which he set himself.

He scored more than 60 points a staggering 32 times in his career. More than 50 112 times, and more than 40 271 times. He once went 65 games in a row where he scored more than 30 points. He shot 72.7% from the field one year. He once went 18 for 18 from the field.

Triple doubles? Well, he once had 9 triple doubles...IN A ROW. He got 41 rebounds in an NBA Finals game - against Bill Russell.

His records are insane. No one is even close.

And to top it all off, he was a track athlete, for those letsrunners who care about this sort of stuff. And not this, "how fast can Allen Iverson run a mile" junk. Wilt ran under 50 for the 440 in h.s., broke 2 in the half, and was the Big Eight HJ champ 3 times in college.

W. Mitty wrote:

I think that you are on the right track by trying to normalize numbers when possible and adjust for relative dominance in an era, in a Bill Jamesian fashion. Players adjust to the rules, the rules change according to the players. Countervailing forces produce competitive equilibrium until someone comes along with an unbeatable edge, etc.

Who is Bill Jamesian?