Lets just end the heel strike debate right now.

shoe guy wrote:

Americans need to wake up and realize that the reason Africans are beating us is not because of genetics, it is not because of drugs, but because they have better form which allows them to run more without breaking down. The reason that this is the case is because they grew up running more, which helped them ingrain this efficiency from a young age. Watch most 5 or 6 year olds run and they are actually pretty efficient. Because of our western lifestyle we tend to move less in a bipedal motion and thus "forget" good form. Practice makes perfect.

Tergat was about 20 when he took up running. Must be why he landed on his heel.

Shoe guy, you are out of your mind. L Ron Hubbards thesis that humans are decedent from an alien civilation 75 million years ago is more compelling than your Pose Cult.

You, nor any of your cultists, have yet to explain why there is a "proper footstrike" The reason why you can't is because there is no such thing as "proper" foot strike.

Isn't the Pose (you possibly?) creator the nutcase who claims that gravity pulls you forward? You can hear the laughter from physicists around the world.

"Watch most 5 or 6 year olds run and they are actually pretty efficient."

Do you believe this? They look like a bunch of flailing 5-6 years olds. Open your eyes.

"Africans are beating us is not because of genetics, it is not because of drugs, but because they have better form which allows them to run more without breaking down."

You aren't even a student of the sport if you say that. Africans break down, Europeans break down, Japanses breakdown. Former 10k world record holder lurched from side to side. Legendary cross country champion and Seoul 5k gold medalist John Ngugi looked like he was doing the 'cabbage patch' when he ran.

Pull your head out of your ass and open your eyes. It smells better too.

malmo wrote:

You aren't even a student of the sport if you say that. Africans break down, Europeans break down, Japanses breakdown. Former 10k world record holder Samson Kimobwa lurched from side to side. .

edit.

The notion that Tergat is a heelstriker is ridiculously overplayed. Watch this video, he doesn't heelstrike until he begins overstriding in the last 100m of the race, likely a contributing factor to his defeat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D56ZAvcxN0

Look I could argue with you people until I am blue in the face but ultimately what I can speak for is my personal experience. I would not have been able to run sub 14 in the 5k with the form I had when I was gutting out 4:19 miles and 15+ min 5ks in high school. A series of stress fractures made me realize that form actually MATTERS, and I was able to obtain much better results and stay healthy by improving my form.

Malmo, gravity is the source for moving forward - and even uphill! I challenge you to draw a free body diagram for moving forward without gravity. That might help you see how there does exist a "proper" (meaning more efficient) running technique. You'll see that any impact occurring in front of the center of mass is slowing the runner down.

You're retarded. Gravity has only one vector > straight down. It has no forward vector, period.

"gravity is the source for moving forward"

:facepalm:

malmo wrote:

Just as soon as you put a link to anything Pose, you became permanently disqualified from the debate.

I'll second that.

I do want to say something about the issue. I have experimented with heel strike, Mid foot, and Forefoot. Today in my run I decided to practice running up my upper forefoot along with a nice lean to go with it. Now, I don't know if taking an ashtma inhaler helped(I have some Excercise Induced Ashtma) but I ran signifciantly faater than I usually do and with much less effort. I felt as if I was gliding along unlike my usually lower midfoot-Upper heel strike. I was clocking low to mid 8s with no problem for about an hour which is not that fast to me but considering just how good I felt on this run(I coulda gone 6:45 minute miles in a race) and my pr for 10k is 43:51 I was really quite suprised.

Malmo, I think you should try running on your upper forefoot. You can't support your evidence without trying it. So atleast try to do it and tell me what you think. Because I was truly gliding along.

stop the insanity wrote:

You're retarded. Gravity has only one vector > straight down. It has no forward vector, period.

Agreed. When did this thread turn into an argument about gravity? Just to clarify malmo I am not a pose runner and I find any argument about falling forward in running, leaning, gravity, etc. to be bulls***. I referenced a pose article about dorsiflexing because I thought it was well written.

Let me summarize my argument:

The way your foot lands is the LEAST important aspect of form. It is an aspect, and can be improved, but it is not the most important. The reason form is important is because it allows you to train at a higher intensity and volume without risking injury. Of course every athlete breaks down malmo, but Geb is out there hammering 150 mile weeks while rarely getting hurt. EVERY athlete that is pushing the boundary in their training risks injury and breaks down. Bekele being injured currently is proof of this. However, there are few Americans doing the kind of volume that the top Africans are. Just saying.

Posting a video of Morceli doing everything right but dorsiflexing proves that the foot strike is really not that important. If you want to simplify my argument, stop overstriding and start running with appropriate turnover. There was a study done recently that proved that increasing your turnover reduced the risk of stress fractures. Footstrike should be lower priority, there is much more to correct form than the way your foot hits the ground.

Look, I could go on but I have better things to do with my time. Alberto Salazar is teaching form and it is working for his athletes. Economy is an aspect of running performance that is just ridiculous to completely dismiss. That's my last post on this thread.

Ooops, it looks like Mark Nenow, Dan Dillon and Thom Hunt are all heel-strikers too!

http://www.juanjosemartinez.com.mx/photoxctrials81.html

All from the 1980 period.

shoe guy wrote:

Thank you A Skeptic for reiterating what I said. Where your foot lands relative to your body is most important. The type of landing is really the least important thing. I will say though, that dorsiflexion is completely unnecessary and is useless when you are running fast. It is just a bad habit that can be relearned like everything else.

In the video malmo posted of himself that is all that he is really doing wrong. Sure, it worked for him but I believe malmo could have ran faster if he didn't dorsiflex. It is just extra wasted muscle energy and tension.

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000398.html

The two best runners of all time don't dorsiflex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9PZUkhxfTs

How do you know for certain that Malmo would have run faster if he didn't dorsiflex? You don't.

What scientific credentials does he have?

shoe guy wrote:

The notion that Tergat is a heelstriker is ridiculously overplayed. Watch this video, he doesn't heelstrike until he begins overstriding in the last 100m of the race, likely a contributing factor to his defeat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D56ZAvcxN0

Look I could argue with you people until I am blue in the face but ultimately what I can speak for is my personal experience. I would not have been able to run sub 14 in the 5k with the form I had when I was gutting out 4:19 miles and 15+ min 5ks in high school. A series of stress fractures made me realize that form actually MATTERS, and I was able to obtain much better results and stay healthy by improving my form.

But can you prove that your heel striking was what caused your stress fractures?

He's not trying to support any evidence. All he has said is that there is no one 'correct' way to run.

I'm going to put my money on not a single person telling a kid when they are young "Hey, you are running mid foot. Stop that. Start putting your heel first."

Nobody would ever do that. People have begun to heel strike because shoes have made us lazy and absorbed the shock for us.

I'm not saying to go and buy some Vibrams, that's extreme. But I digress....

Examine the way Geb and Bekele run. Their strides do something I would call landing, cradle, push off.

Their foot initiates a back/downward motion just before touching the ground. This allows them to make their foot land underneath their body. With the knee bent, they cradle the body weight, with no jerky or jarring movements. Then they transfer to push off. They never really have to overcome a foot way out in front of their bodies - much more efficient.

Much smoother, much easier on the body, much more efficient.

gazoo wrote:

I'm going to put my money on not a single person telling a kid when they are young "Hey, you are running mid foot. Stop that. Start putting your heel first."

gazoo, do you ever give up? You're broken record. People shouldn't be telling young runners that running on their heels is wrong.

gazoo wrote:

Nobody would ever do that. People have begun to heel strike because shoes have made us lazy and absorbed the shock for us.

People don't heel-strike because their shoes have made them lazy, they do it because that's the way their natural foot landing.

Hi

I changed my strike from midfoot to heel strike because of my plantar fasciitis. It took me some time but I did manage to start running with heel strike. My PF is almost gone today. I don't know if it helped because there were many more things that I did to treat my PF at the same time. I started to use taping which really helped me and I changed my job conditions also stretching and so... I did get good ideas from

http://www.plantar-fasciitis-elrofeet.com

Today since I am better with my PF I want to go back midfoot striking and it is not so easy. I am running more efficiently midfoot and I understood that the best runners don't use heel strike. I think my PF came from standing long hours on my feet for work and since I changed my job conditions I want to change back my gait.

Take care