Speaking of Dellinger, what happened to Oregon in the 90s? They were so strong, but then just had nothing to speak of (when compared to the 70s and 80s).
Did he just check out?
Speaking of Dellinger, what happened to Oregon in the 90s? They were so strong, but then just had nothing to speak of (when compared to the 70s and 80s).
Did he just check out?
Ok, so one more thought on this. As a HS kid who grew up watching and hearing about Oregon, and then running at Arkansas, I have to tell you, there is absolutely nothing that extraordinary about the training I'm reading here. Salazar could do big miles, but I've seen 50+ guys do training harder than this. From a historical perspective, it's interesting, but I don't see the big deal.
Here's a sample of workouts from the Arkansas days in the 1990s.
2,000 (5:17) 1,600 (4:18) 1,200 (3:12), 800 (2:05), 600 (1:32), 400 (59) 300 (42) 200 (27)
3 minutes rest after the 2k, 3 minutes after the 1,600 and 1,200, with rest decreasing down to 55 seconds after the 800m.
----------------------------------------------------------
3x1mile (4:20 with 3 minutes rest)
4x800m (1:58 with 2 minutes rest)
5x 1 mile (4:38 on grass with last 800m uphill) with 4 minutes jog inbetween.
8x400m 56 seconds with 55 seconds rest
16x400m 59.5 seconds with 60 seconds rest
-----------------------------------------------------
Again, I haven't put the time into incorporating this into a full schedule, but with a long run at 5:50 pace (14 miles), a 10 mile steady state in 52 minutes, mile repeats, 400s, and your regular 10 mile trail runs easy at 60 minutes, and morning runs, well, there you go.
[quote]schiefer wrote:
Oregon "Got" the cream of the crop. They had virtually no one in the 90s.[quote]
As long as you are being a dick Schief, I will correct you. When I was looking at Oregon's dominating performance at NCAA XC this November, much was made of the level of talent on the team currently. Looking at the HS PR's of the ones that actually ran this fall, I noticed that America has had something like 45-50 sub-8:50 HS 2-milers in all of its history.
Oregon has four of them right now.
Was I not speaking of the 90s? I think it's so funny that people have no sense of history. People seem to think that Oregon has had a strong Men's program all along, and it's not true. They are good now, fantastic. I just wonder why they were no good in the 90s.
Squid wrote:
Bill McChesney gave me a copy of Winning Running and I started doing the workouts to the letter my senior year in 1982.
Is there any real material difference between "Winning Running" and "Competitive Runner's Training Book". The former was published in 1978, the latter in 1984.
Appreciate any comments from those who have read both.
schiefer-hope you didn't that kinda of training...
schiefer wrote:
Here's a sample of workouts from the Arkansas days in the 1990s.
2,000 (5:17) 1,600 (4:18) 1,200 (3:12), 800 (2:05), 600 (1:32), 400 (59) 300 (42) 200 (27)
3 minutes rest after the 2k, 3 minutes after the 1,600 and 1,200, with rest decreasing down to 55 seconds after the 800m.
----------------------------------------------------------
3x1mile (4:20 with 3 minutes rest)
4x800m (1:58 with 2 minutes rest)
5x 1 mile (4:38 on grass with last 800m uphill) with 4 minutes jog inbetween.
8x400m 56 seconds with 55 seconds rest
16x400m 59.5 seconds with 60 seconds rest
-----------------------------------------------------
The CRTB is significantly better I found. Can observe the pattern of workout easier, more compact, in meters. Also has more on circuit training. I actually checked last night and CRTB and Winning Running have the same exact workouts listed.
Chris Walsh also wrote a good little book on Bowerman Training called "The Bowerman System". It is hard to find.
Bowerman tailored his training to the athlete. In several cases he took runners who had trained higher miles and were not progressing and had them lower their miles and slow off their interval pace so that they could retrench and begin to progress again.
Bowerman often wrote (and said) why run 100 mpw if you can break 4 minutes for the mile on 25 mpw? His point was not to run miles just for their own sake.
Most of his runners ran quite a bit more but Bowerman believed that a miler (for example) could run faster on a weekly diet of:
3 miles of date pace
1 mile of goal pace
A trial run
A long run of 10 miles
A very nice summary of a system that works quite well for most people, and good advice still today.
As to the Arkansas workouts, they need to be put in context. The only guys who could do that workout would be Graham Hood or a similar talent. If an average(talented) guy did that, it would have to start at 4:30 or 4:40.
Want some history? Pre at his peak in 72 ran 3x1mi in 4:08-4:10 with 3-4 min rest.The average guy at Arkansas was not quite in Pre's league.
I'd agree that this is a system that either as-is or with minimal tinkering works very well for most runners. For me the really beneficial part was the early season emphasis on date-pace running, which very quickly starts to feel easy.
When Jim Spivey wrote in an earlier thread that one of his goals was to "float" much of is track work I made the connection. That is it in a nutshell, practicing running fast but under control. Fluid.
I think Art Boileau was a walk-on and he did quite well.
walkons wrote:
[quote]Exxx-Duck wrote:
Captain Krunch: I would say that in the early 80\'s that there were maybe 15 walk-ons. Oregon was a fairly friendly walk-on program then. Some of those guys went on to be either Pac-10 or NCAA champions (McMonigal, Nelson). I also remember some Norweigns that got pretty fast and were scoring in the dual meets, though I\'m not sure if they were recruited.
Also, don\'t forget about guys like Mcguirk, Randall, Morisette, that were there around \'83 (as walk ons?) and were very close to 4:00
We had lots of guys that did these workouts. That group had 7-9 guys doing these, week after week, year after year.Schiefer
another canuck wrote:
A very nice summary of a system that works quite well for most people, and good advice still today.
As to the Arkansas workouts, they need to be put in context. The only guys who could do that workout would be Graham Hood or a similar talent. If an average(talented) guy did that, it would have to start at 4:30 or 4:40.
Want some history? Pre at his peak in 72 ran 3x1mi in 4:08-4:10 with 3-4 min rest.The average guy at Arkansas was not quite in Pre's league.
And in fairness, at Ark, there were 3 groups that did workouts. The workouts I detailed (besides the 5x1 mile on grass) was only done by the milers.
This group that did the workouts I listed, had PRs between 1:45-1:49, and 3:33-3:40.
So the "Average" guy at Arkansas didn't do these. And BTW, and "Average" at Ark in the 90s was generally considered to be a 3:45, 8:15 guy.
FYI:This is Salazar's 1977 log...in '78, he was the NCAA coss country champion.
malmo wrote:
Alberto Salazar's 1978 cross country log.
Sept 5-11 105 miles
9/5 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles
9/6 T - AM 11 miles PM 3 miles
9/7 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 11.5 miles
9/8 T - AM 5 miles PM 8 miles
9/9 F - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles
9/10 S - AM 3.5 warm-up, 6x 1 mile (5:12 to 4:44) w/400 jog PM 4 miles
9/11 S - AM 4 miles PM 11 miles
Sept 12-18 108 miles
9/12 M - AM 6 miles PM 12 miles
9/13 T - AM 6 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 6x 1 mile w 400 jog (5:30,5:00,5:04,4:50,5:05,4:50) , 3 miles easy
9/14 W - AM 6 miles PM 9 miles
9/15 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 mile warmup, 3 x 150 steep hill (60-70s), 6 miles
9/16 F - AM 6 miles PM 8 miles
9/17 S - AM 2.5 miles easy, 10.5 miles in 54:15 PM 5 miles easy
9/18 S - AM 13 miles
Sept 19-25 110 miles
9/19 M - AM 7.5 miles PM 8.5 miles
9/20 T - AM 6 miles PM 2 miles warmup, 6x 1 mile w/400 jog(4:54,4:46,4:46,4:42,4:32,4:18) 3.5 miles
9/21 W - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles
9/22 T - AM 7.5 miles PM 2 miles 3 sets 3x300 hill (E-M-H), 3.5 miles
9/23 F - AM 7.5 miles PM 7.5 miles
9/24 S - AM 2 mile warmup, 30th Avenue Drill: ¾ mile in 3:15, 2nd ¾ mile in 3:20, last one 3:20, 14 miles total
9/25 S - AM 11 miles easy PM 2 miles with stairs
Sept 26-Oct 2 98 miles
9/26 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6x 30/30 (28/32)
9/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 4 x ¾ mile (3:30), 3 x 1 mile(5:10,4:54,4:32) w/ 400 jog, 3 miles warmdown
9/28 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
9/29 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x hill on golf course, 3 miles
9/30 F - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles
10/1 S - AM 2.5 miles 11:30 meet 2 miles, 10000 CX in 29:22 (1st, Virgin 2nd) 3 mile warmdown
10/2 S - AM 13 miles
Oct 3 - Oct 9 109 miles
10/3 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30
10/4 T - AM 7 miles PM 1 mile warmup, 11 miles @ 5:11, 1 mile cooldown
10/5 W - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 6 x 30/30
10/6 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, 9 x hill (E,M,H), 3.5 miles
10/7 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/8 S - 6am 2.5 miles, 10am 1.5 easy, 6x1 mile (5:12,5:07,4:54,4:48,4:44,4:31) 400 jog, 3 miles easy
10/9 S - AM 14 miles (around the Butte)
Oct 10 - Oct 16 106 miles
10/10 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/11 T - AM 7 miles PM 1.5 miles, ¾ mile (3:09), 1.5 miles, 5 x 880/330 (2:26,2:19,2:26,2:11,2:25/49-50), 1.5 miles easy
10/12 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/13 T - AM 7 miles PM 2 miles, 9x 300 hill (E, M, H), 3.5 miles
10/14 F - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/15 S - 6am 3 miles, 10am 30th Ave Drill: ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles (@5:17), ¾ mile (3:12), 4 miles, ¾ mile (3:15), 1 mile cooldown
10/16 S - AM 14 miles
Oct 17 - Oct 23 88 miles
10/17 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/18 T - AM 7 miles 1.5 mile warmup, PM 4 x 330 uphill, 4 x 330 downhill, 3 mile cooldown
10/19 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/20 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 1 mile (4:13), 1 mile easy, 4x880/330 (2:26,2:22,2:16,2:16/50-48) 2 miles.
10/21 F - AM 6 miles, sore tendon
10/22 S - AM 4 miles PM 6 miles still painful, but better
10/23 S - AM 13 miles
Oct 24 - Oct 30 100 miles
10/24 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/25 T - AM 5 miles PM 3 mile warmup, 3x ¾ mile(3:29,3:23,3:17), 2x880/330 (2:32,50,2:22,51) 1 mile cooldown
10/26 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
10/27 T - AM 7 miles PM 5 miles and strides
10/28 F - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles
10/29 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 2 miles , 10,000 race (3rd), 2 miles PM 5.5 easy
10/30 S - AM 15 miles (note: had Alberto run his usual 13-14 miles he wouldn’t have made 100, LOL!)
Oct 31 - Novt 6 98 miles
10/31 M - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles, 6x30/30, 1 mile cooldown
11/1 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 5x330 uphill and downhill, 3 mile cooldown
11/2 W - AM 7 miles PM 8 miles
11/3 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 4x ¾ mile (3:24, 3:22, 3:19, 3:18), w/ 400 jog, 2x880/330
11/4 F - AM 4 miles PM rest
11/5 S - 6am 3 miles 11am 3 miles, 1 mile (4:14) cont. 5:12, 3 miles at 5:12, 3x330 (51,49,45)
11/6 S - AM 12 miles
Nov 7 - Nov 13 86 miles
11/7 M - AM 7 miles PM 7 miles, 8x330, 1 mile cooldown
11/8 T - AM 7 miles PM 3 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:27, 3:22, 3:18) with 400 jog, 3x880/330(2:32,51,2:20,47,2:16,47)
11/9 W - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles
11/10 T - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x330 (42,49,51), 3 miles, 3x330(51,49,45), 1 mile cooldown
11/11 F - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles
11/12 S - AM 2 miles, 10,000 Xc 29:47 (3rd), 2 miles cooldown
11/13 S - AM 12 miles
Nov 14 - Nov 20 67 miles
11/14 M - AM 5 miles PM 5 miles, 6x30/30
11/15 T - AM 5 miles PM 4 miles
11/16 W - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 3x ¾ mile (3:30, 3:22, 3:18), 2x 880/330 (2:30,51,2:22,48) 2 miles
11/17 T - AM 5.5 miles PM 6.5 miles
11/18 F - AM 5 miles PM 2 miles, 9x330 (52,52,51,49,48,47,48,49,46), 1 mile
11/19 S - AM 3 miles PM 4 miles
11/20 S - AM 4 miles
Nov 21 - Nov 27 44 miles
11/21 M - AM 2 miles 11am NCAA CX (9th), Team beat UTEP 100-105.
11/22 T - 5 miles
11/23 W - 5 miles
11/24 T - 4 miles
11/25 F - 5 miles
11/26 S - 7am 3 miles Noon AAU 10000m XC (10th)
11/27S - 4 miles
Summary:
70 days, 130 sessions
60 doubles
10 singles
21.5% = percentage of individual runs 10 miles or longer (28 out of 130 efforts averaging 11.85 miles, range 10-15 miles)
14.2 miles = avg daily mileage
2.7 miles = stdev
15 miles = mode (28x), 14(11x), 16(7x), 13(5x), 12(5x), 18(4x)
69 = number of AM runs (including Sunday long run)
7.1 miles = avg AM run
6.2 miles = avg AM run (not including long run)
61 = number of PM runs
8.3 miles = avg PM run
9 long runs (13,11,13,14,14,13,15,12,12)
13.0 miles = avg long run
15 miles = longest run. One occurrence.
Long runs = 91% of the avg daily mileage
Long runs = 13.1% of the avg weekly mileage
fact.checker wrote:
FYI:
This is Salazar's 1977 log...in '78, he was the NCAA coss country champion.
FYI, that's been pointed out 3 times already.
mitslel wrote:
Speaking of Dellinger, what happened to Oregon in the 90s? They were so strong, but then just had nothing to speak of (when compared to the 70s and 80s).
Did he just check out?
By the end of the 80s, Oregon was no longer getting the cream of the crop. Dellinger was never the greatest recruiter, Oregon got the top kids for a long time because of their distance tradition, but by then other schools like Stanford were offering better deals. Without talent, the program went downhill.
canadian wrote:
I think Art Boileau was a walk-on and he did quite well.
All-time marathon PR of 2:11:15 set in the 1986 Boston Marathon.
mitslel wrote:
Speaking of Dellinger, what happened to Oregon in the 90s? They were so strong, but then just had nothing to speak of (when compared to the 70s and 80s).
Did he just check out?
-----
This is classic. In 1991, I called Dellinger to tell him I was going to walk on at Oregon. I had run 3:45, 4:05 indoors, at 4500 feet, and was an NCAA Indoor Qualifier.
I said, Bill, I don't need money, so if you don't have an athletic scholarship, that's not a big deal, I have money to pay for school......
So, no BS, Dellinger tells me "You know, we have a really good team, so I'm not sure we even need you."
Classic this guy turned down free points at NCAAs, FREE POINTS....
Maybe you pushed some buttons when you called to "tell him", that you were going to walk on. I bet if you would have asked, opposed to telling, things might have turned out differently.
I'd like to get those logs as well. I am very familiar with the competitive runner's handbook, but, am always looking for more details.