Some more information about kenyan athletes

it depends on what you mean by "threshold." Most people use lactate threshold to be the speed/effort at which lactate just starts to accumulate. jtupper has his guys run this pace for a 20min range workout. jtuper has this around 92%MHR

in training, I use lactate threshold to describ the speed/effort right below that at which lactate accumulates. Lactate's being produced in large quantities, but just under the amount that can no longer be cleared. RWTB defines this as 85-87%MHR. this is to be a 50min workout.

What may be interesting is to use the 20min 92%MHR one week and the 50min 85-87%MHR workout the next week, and cycle. Working lactate threshold from above and below.

Let's talk about this idea of lactate accumulating. The way I understand this works is as follows:

Let's say we have a runner who's lactate threshold is 6:00/mile pace and that corresponds to 3.8 mmol/kg.

At rest, his lactate level is 1.0 mmol/kg.

At 8:00/mi pace the lactate stabilizes at 2.0 mmol/kg, and would stay that way if the runner ran for many miles.

At 7:00/mi pace the lactate stabilizes at 3.0 mmol/kg, and would stay there for many miles.

At any pace faster than 6:00/mi, this athlete is above the threshold. That means that the lactate level will NEVER stabilize, but will increase until the runner takes a break. It might be 3.8 mmol/kg after a mile, 5.0 mmol/kg after 2 miles, 7.0 mmol/kg after 3 miles and so on until the athlete could no longer continue.

The rate of lactate increase would be determined by how much faster than 6:00/mi pace the runner is traveling. So there is always lactate, but at paces faster than the lactate threshold, the body cannot remove it faster than it is being produced.

Lactate is just an intermediate fuel to be burnt, shuttled

to other limbs and organs, stored and resynthesized into

other compounds. Why does 4 mmol/kg have to be the benchmark

for threshold?

Joel you got it absolutely spot on

I'm very happy that the discussion is finally on the rail of methodology. I want to explain better what I wrote. For normal phisiology, regarding normal people, the conventional thresholds are about 2 mmol (aerobic) and 4 mmol (anaerobic). This is true for athletes that have a very high development in aerobic endurance at low level (for example, amateur athletes), or for marathon runner at the top of their shape, specific for marathon.

When a marathon runner is preparing his marathon, in a period about 3 months before the race, the difference between the speed of 2 mmol (AT) and 4 mmol (AnT) is about 10% (for example, 3'20" per km and 3' per km, or, for you, 5'20" - 4'48" per mile). When you go on with SPECIFIC WORKOUTS OF MARATHON SPEED ENDURANCE, normally you reduce this gap, arriving about a difference of 5% in the period of the race (for example, 3'09" - 3' per km). This difference in speed is a good mark for testing the real preparation for a marathon. So, you must not improve your speed, as your best performance in HM can be reached about 45-30 days before your marathon, but after you must maintain your speed, lasting longer. REMEMBER THAT MARATHON IS A SPECIALISM OF EXTENSION.

For searching and testing this situation, we use a test called FARAGGIANA-GIGLIOTTI (Faraggiana was the doctor of Italian Federation following Gelindo Bordin from '86 to '92 and Gigliotti his coach, now coach of Baldini) consisting in 6 x 2000m at even pace, using an acustic rabbit, taking blood for controlling lactate, run with a very short intervall (may be 40", time necessary for taking blood), with a small improvement in speed every time. For example, Bordin used running in 6'15" - 6'10" - 6'05" - 6' - 5'55" and 5'50". Among this series of times, of sure there is the marathon pace. If the preparation is going in a correct direction, what we can see is that the level of lactate, in different periods, decreases around the speed good for marathon. When the level is about 2 mmol, if the difference between 2 and 4 mmol is 5% in speed, the athlete is prepared for running the full race at the pace of 2 mmol.

With Kenyan athletes (but not only, because we began this tests with Antibo (27'16") and Panetta (27'24" and 8'08" on steeple) I tried something different. For a runner of 26'30" like Kemboi this year, for instead, supposing a value of 26'40" two weeks before Brussels, I did a test running 5 times 2000m in 5'20" (going down from St. Moritz to Sondrio, because in altitude the level of lactate is not the same) with recovery of 1'30", and i had these values :

6,6 mmol (1st) - 8,3 (2nd) - 8,7 (3rd) - 9,2 (4rd) - 11,6 (5th). In this values, you can find a special type of steady-state about 8-9 mmol, lasting from 2nd to 8th km, that we call MAX LASS, depending on different situations, among which the permeability of the membranes it seems to be the most important. So, the behavior of lactate at the speed of the race in a top runner is very different from that of a normal runner, but also from the trend of the lactate in the same athlete, while not specifically trained.

I want to continue later.

Renato, thank you, this is absolutely fantastic information. To run a marathon at a pace only 5% slower than the 4mmol pace is extremely economical. Last year my marathon pace was 10.5% slower than my 4mmol pace, -too slow. I will train exactly the way you tell me to for the London marathon, I put my trust in your methodology.

Hmmm. Your example with Kemboi is interesting. You said his lactate results when running at 10k pace for 5x2000m(1:30) were:

6.6 mmol

8.3

8.7

9.2

11.6

Since 10k pace is faster than where the lactate threshold pace usually falls (half marathon pace), we would expect those numbers to keep increasing by 2 or 3 mmol for each repeat, but instead they stabilize in the 8-9mmol range as you mentioned at sort of a race-pace threshold.

So is this new MaxLASS a key sign that any athlete is ready for a good performance, or will this only occur with elite athletes?

What sort of lactate tests might you perform with middle distance runners, particularly 800m?

I have heard of testing the pace at 4 mmol regularly to see if aerobic capacity is improving.

Keep the good info coming Renato, and please ignore the few idiots on the board. We can all learn from your information.

Renato, like Joel I have a question about these lactate levels. Are you suggesting that when your athletes come down from altitude they can tolerate higher lactate levels?

Altitude has different signification and goals, depending on the athletes and your normal type of life. You must remember that the real signification of training is TO STIMULATE YOUR BODY FOR HAVING AN OVERCOMPENSATION. This means that the same type of training, provoking adaptations, is a big mistake, because after short time you reduce your internal load and the same training is no more stimulating, extremely becoming a NON TRAINING for your body. This is what normally happens for amateurs runners, always doing the same type of work. So, every training must be more difficult in order to stimulate your overcompensation. For an athlete living at sea level, the fact of running in altitude is already a new stimula, becoming more difficult his activity. For an athlete living in altitude, the only two solutions can be :

1) Going in higher altitude (but for who lives at 3000m training at 4000m is not possible, and in any case too much riskious)

2) Going at sea level, working harder (for example, reducing recovery times, that in altitude cannot be very short)

Under this point of view, a european or american runner training for a period of 3-4 weeks in altitude, after 2-3 weeks after coming back to sea level, can have some improvement in Anaerobic Threshold, so can reduce his level of lactate at the some speed of before (but this is not true if we are talking about the level of Aerobic Threshold, conventionally of 2 mmol).

But, regarding kenyans or ethiopians, they can reduce their level of lactate only working very harder at sea level, increasing volume at high intensity and reducing recovery times. You must think that what makes the difference between african and european runners is the LEVEL OF ANAEROBIC THRESHOLD, very higher in African runners (the demonstration is in their supremacy in HM, more than in any other event). We can think that ENDURANCE IS THE CAPACITY OF ELIMINATING LACTATE VERY QUICKLY. Under this point of view, we can have some benefit running in altitude for our athletes, but of course not african runners, because is a normal behavior in their life.

Lactate tests for middle distance runners?

What level of MaxLactate do you see at the end of 800 and 1500 races, or hard training efforts?

We test sometime our best runners of 800m (Bungei, Yiampoy, Mutua) and 1500m (Robert Rono, Timothy Kiptanui) during their training, never after a race.

For example, Wilfred Bungei, before his first race in Hengelo (he wins with 1'43"05) was tested during a work

of SPECIFIC SPEED ENDURANCE in this way :

900m in 2'05"6 (soon 14.4 mmol, after 2' 16,8, after 3' 15,4, after 4' 13.6, after 5' 10.2) recovery 6'

700m in 1'35"2 (15,3 soon - 17.2 after 2' - 15,6 after 3' -

13,8 after 4' - 11.2 after 5') rec. 6'

500m in 1'04"2 (17.4 soon - 19.3 after 2' - 16.0 after 3' -

12.2 after 4' - 10.2 after 5') rec. 6'

400m in 49"6 (15,7 soon - 17.6 after 2' - 15.3 after 3' -

12.0 after 4' - 10.5 after 5') rec. 6'

300m in 34"3 (17.2 soon - 17.4 after 2' - 14.7 after 3' -

10.8 after 4' - 9.6 after 5') rec. 6'

200m in 22"6 (13.2 soon - 15.7 after 2' - 10.2 after 4' -

7.8 after 5')

Wilfred ran also a 400m in 45"07 (hand timing) in Davos on 26th of August. After this test, his lactate (soon, after 2 min, 4 min, 8 min, 15 min) was : 17.6 - 20.4 - 13.8 - 10.6 - 6.6)

Making the same work, for example, the level of lactate of Yiampoy is very lower than the level of lactate of Bungei.

That's the reason because I want to move him to 1500m in agreement with Gianni Ghidini (his coach), but William fears that event and is not able to decide.

great stuff Renato. Is there anymore information you can give us on 800m runners. I would love to see some sample sessions from each phase of the season for athletes like Wilfred and William.

Renato, thanks for all of the specific lactate results. Very interesting to see what max values the elite can reach, and how quickly they buffer during the recovery. So it would seem the purpose of the testing was to find max lactate and the recovery rate.

As an example with myself, I recently ran a 400m test uphill to see how high a value I could reach, and to find the subsequent recovery rate. 16.2mmol/kg was reached at 3 minutes post exercise, but even after 15 minutes of rest the value was still 15.2 mmol/kg. Perhaps later in the season the recovery will more efficient.

Interesting the lactate is higher 2 minutes after finishing.

This is certainly in line with the feeling I get sometimes doing repetitions.

This morning after one of them the level of discomfort was highest a minute or two afterward.

Of course the lactate is higher some minutes post-run, you idiot! Especially if this is a short performance. The lactate in the muscle cell and the blood has not had a chance to equalize. So if you take a blood sample, you get a picture of what the lactate was like in the muscle some minutes previously. The lactate in the muscle must be allowed time to efflux, and even then, the lactate in the blood will never quite be an accurate picture of muscle lactate levels (which is what you really wish to know).

Don't any of you guys realize that Renato is saying nothing new. Every single word of what he has written has been widely known for many years. The depressing thing is that you guys are making it sound like revelation...

The level of ignorance on this thread is frightening.

I didn't say it was new, I said it was INTERESTING.

It's certainly gracious of Mr. Canova that he is willing to REVEAL his personal training programs for top international runners to the rest of us.

He is being HELPFUL. Look that up in your dictionary.

Besides that the 1 repetition where this happened was NOT a short one.

Canova-

I would like to know how fast the top 5k/10k/marathon runners are over 400m. Often they finish off 5k in 52 or 10k in 54...what can they do for an open 400m in a workout? How do they develop that speed? Do all these guys have natural speed or do they get a significant speed boost as a side-effect of their training?

To frame the question differently, when I started running I could run under 60 within the first year, after 2-3 years of low volume-high quality high school work I was able to do 54...after that I was never able to improve my speed despite putting in higher volume during college. Do these world class guys start out at 55 before they start training and then work their way down to 50, or do they start at 60 like I did and get down to 50 because their training is superior?

A lot of people I know (some of whom are respectable long distance runners in the US) had their best 400m speed while in high school and despite the training which now has them in national class shape they are unable to run any faster (and in most cases are slower) over 400m. I am curious if that is to be expected or if these guys are doing something wrong in their training.

Thanks

George,

Excellent question.

I'm looking forward to Renato's response.