There was a point that got lost in there.
There was a point that got lost in there.
ttc wrote:
Along with what spiking it up so much has done to runners' achilles on occasions, I 100% agree that it isn't smart to triple (plus prelims). Plus, he's had a busy racing schedule in many racing distances, before this meet.
That's why no one ever solicits you for your opinion.
i think he lost you there bad data?, but i know what you are referring to.
malmo wrote:
hoosier123 wrote:he has 3:57y and 13:20 to his name now- no reason not to win an ncaa title, yet if he doesnt, people will point to the triples and cross country flights as reasons
Au contraire. I'd be surprised if he did win an NCAA title. Those jewels almost always go to the athletes with the biggest kicks, and I don't see McDougal running away from the field in any event.
Malmo agreed about the kicker thing, i have not expected McD to win a title, up to this season...years past he aint competing with kiplagat, boit, solinsky etc off of a 16:05 pace first k
however, you being a big history fan, i cannot recall a ncaa runner with 3:57y and 13:20 credentials to his name who did not win a title, if there are i really want to know who they are and why they never won...this is not a call out, i have found myself agreeing with you more and more as this thread has progressed, but i think this is a valid pt...guys with those marks have won historically haven't they? recently the only guys with those times have been kimani and cragg-who in my opinion are all timers- yes i know they were also huge kickers
the triple isnt that big a deal- johnny mac would often triple cragg and lincoln at SECs and penn relays, much tougher comp and races than josh's triple...if you are strong then you can handle it, and if josh is one thing it is a strong aerobic monster
Surprise also addressed this: "would a top-class, global athlete do this to his body?" Do what? Work hard? Yes!
Paraphrased: Would a 13:20 runner run a 5 k tempo, rest, and then a 30:30 tempo 10k(remembering that a 13:20 runner is capable of 28:00)? My guess is YES, ABSOLUTELY. I have to agree with Malmo - this tempo workout did nothing to harm him (although I also agree with those who question wearing spikes for all 18 k). And with a 3:57 mile to his credit a 3:49 1500m is not that much stress either. The only legit question is w.r.t. wearing spikes. And, again, that is an individual issue.
A 13:20/28:00(capability) runner is not harming his body with this effort. It is relative. Times that I could not run and am very impressed by are relatively an easy effort for McDougal.
'Arrogant', 'ornery'... call him what you want, but Malmo is also right on this one.
And the team victory factor is a huge factor that I am convinced is part of the equation.
Reality sets in wrote:
drifterz wrote: His legs must have been dead in his 1500 today after yesterday's double, a 3:49 looks sluggish for him.Q-U-A-L-I-F-Y-I-N-G round.
Let's see if you can figure it out. He ran as slow as he could to win the 5,000. He ran as slow as he could to win the 10,000. He ran as slow as he could to qualify for the 1,500 final.
Compare what McDougal has done to what the Cornell dude did in the 1500, 3:42, a PR, winning by 4 seconds. Can you say "dummy?"
even if he bombs regionals that 3:42 will probably get him to nats won't it?
Radio gaga wrote:
ttc wrote:Along with what spiking it up so much has done to runners' achilles on occasions, I 100% agree that it isn't smart to triple (plus prelims). Plus, he's had a busy racing schedule in many racing distances, before this meet.
That's why no one ever solicits you for your opinion.
TTC is right. Why the hell triple the guy? They need to set their big gun up for the big races for a change.
Q-U-A-L-I-F-Y-I-N-G round.
Let's see if you can figure it out. He ran as slow as he could to win the 5,000. He ran as slow as he could to win the 10,000. He ran as slow as he could to qualify for the 1,500 final.
Compare what McDougal has done to what the Cornell dude did in the 1500, 3:42, a PR, winning by 4 seconds. Can you say "dummy?"[/quote]
It doesn't seem that stupid to me. The 1500 is stacked in the east region and if you're not top 5 you better have a fast time for an atlarge bid. That's the only reason why he would run as fast as he did in the QUALIFYING round. Its probably smarter than running 10 miles worth of races in close to 16 hours
just to add something here.
I know for a fact that some university of portland just did a workout of 15 by 1k with 45 second rest at 302 to 300. I don't know who did them all but it was the week after stanford and the ones who races didn't do all of them (12).
hoosier123 wrote:
however, you being a big history fan, i cannot recall a ncaa runner with 3:57y and 13:20 credentials to his name who did not win a title,
Until this spring, McDougal was a 13:52/29:21 runner, hardly someone who should have won an NCAA title.
Billy McChesney never won an NCAA title and he was a 3:57/13:14 runner.
Rudy Chapa was a 3:57/13:15 would have never won an NCAA title if Henry Rono showed up to the starting line in 1978.
Geoff Smith ran 13:22 and never won an NCAA title.
terps wrote:
Well, Malmo, Chris Lear interviewed El G and his coach, Abdelkada Kada, in the book on Alan Webb, Sub 4:00, see pages 211-214. Lear writes that El G's coach said, "....He stressed the need for a limited racing schedule, with no more than three or four races indoors and six races outdoors." Then he wrote El G "agreed with his coach, dismissing the collegiate system as 'not good at all' for developing middle-distance talent."
Obviously, neither Coach Kada nor El Guerrouj subscribes to the words attributed to them by Lear.
Hichan El Guerrouj race history (indoor, outdoor)
2004 11 races (1, 10) sick
2003 16 (3, 13)
2002 15 (0, 15)
2001 21 (5, 16)
2000 12 (0, 12)
1999 13 (0, 13)
1998 17 (2, 15)
1997 18 (3, 15)
1996 12 (1, 11)
1995 10 (0, 10)
It should be noted that these figures only reflect the racing activity that was reported by Tilastopaja. Tilastopaja under-reports domestic races, XC and road races. I would suspect that there are more El Guerrouj races than listed above.
With Gebrselassie, I was able to find a 2nd resource that reported additional information.
http://www.tilastopaja.net/http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~bpence/Geb_Index.html[/quote]
terps wrote:
Then in Running with the Buffaloes, read p. 118-119, Mark Wetmore's interpretation of Haille G.'s quote on the Golden League, as "good, but not for distance runners. There are too many races in too short a time." So he applied that concept to a major theme of book, uninterrupted training coupled with limited racing. He discusses that principle all through the book.
So Haille did not directly comment on college runners
Gebrselassie didn’t comment on the US collegiate system, nor does his racing schedule support Lear’s inferences nor your conclusions.
Gebrselassie race history (Indoor, outdoor, Xc-roads, marathon)
2006 6 (0, 0, 3, 3)
2005 7 (0, 0, 6, 1)
2004 9 (6, 3, 0, 0) injured
2003 12 (5, 7, 0, 0))
2002 5 (0, 1, 3, 1)
2001 7 (0, 1, 6, 0)
2000 6 (0, 6, 0, 0)
1999 19 (5, 14, 0, 0)
1998 26 (8, 16, 2, 0)
1997 19 (5, 13, 1, 0)
1996 10 (1, 6, 3, 0)
1995 16 (0, 12, 4, 0)
1994 20 (0, 8, 12, 0)
1993 20 (0, 10, 10, 0)
malmo wrote:
hoosier123 wrote:however, you being a big history fan, i cannot recall a ncaa runner with 3:57y and 13:20 credentials to his name who did not win a title,
Until this spring, McDougal was a 13:52/29:21 runner, hardly someone who should have won an NCAA title.
Billy McChesney never won an NCAA title and he was a 3:57/13:14 runner.
Rudy Chapa was a 3:57/13:15 would have never won an NCAA title if Henry Rono showed up to the starting line in 1978.
Geoff Smith ran 13:22 and never won an NCAA title.
Wrong! McDougal ran a 28:49 10,000 in 2006. He also ran a very speedy 7:53 3000 in 2006.
harry nile wrote:
Wrong! McDougal ran a 28:49 10,000 in 2006. He also ran a very speedy 7:53 3000 in 2006.
OK, 28:49 and 7:53. Doesn't change a thing. that's not the stuff of someone who "should have won" an NCAA title.
Yeah, but he ran those time early. Had he peaked properly like everyone else he would have topped those times in championship races.
He also smashed Meb Keflezki's (sp?) course record at Stanford in 2006. Damn impressive.
back cat wrote:
Yeah, but he ran those time early. Had he peaked properly like everyone else he would have topped those times in championship races.
Why?
2006 indoor: He ran his 7:53 on one of the fastest indoor tracks in the world and and finish 5th in the 3k and 4th in the 5k. Only a fool would believe McDougal should have won either race.
2006 outdoor: He was a 28:49/13:53 runner who didn't have a chance in the 5000. He was 9th, about what one would expect from him.
malmo wrote:
hoosier123 wrote:however, you being a big history fan, i cannot recall a ncaa runner with 3:57y and 13:20 credentials to his name who did not win a title,
Until this spring, McDougal was a 13:52/29:21 runner, hardly someone who should have won an NCAA title.
Billy McChesney never won an NCAA title and he was a 3:57/13:14 runner.
Rudy Chapa was a 3:57/13:15 would have never won an NCAA title if Henry Rono showed up to the starting line in 1978.
Geoff Smith ran 13:22 and never won an NCAA title.
my post explicitly stated that i did not expect him to win in years past...he is now a 3:57y and 13:20 guy, elite company- didn't know about mchesney, thanks...why didnt mcchesney ever win a title?
hoosier123 wrote:
my post explicitly stated that i did not expect him to win in years past...he is now a 3:57y and 13:20 guy, elite company- didn't know about mchesney, thanks...why didnt mcchesney ever win a title?
Because there's only room for one champion.
McDougal wore flats in the 10,000m.
Rudy's fastest 5000m was 13;19.
I have seen every NCAA race that McDougal has competed in and he has never been close to winning any of the races.
Metahuman wrote:
Malmo, have you ever in your life admitted you might be wrong,
You have to be wrong first. None of the facts are wrong, nor is my analysis or conclusion wrong. Sorry it bothers you that you are out of your depth.