Many records end up being relatively solo affairs. A race long battle with other competitors doesn't seem to translate to free flowing running.
Easy to find videos of Aouita, Geb, Bekele and El G essentially racing the clock well clear of the field.
Many records end up being relatively solo affairs. A race long battle with other competitors doesn't seem to translate to free flowing running.
Easy to find videos of Aouita, Geb, Bekele and El G essentially racing the clock well clear of the field.
newname wrote:
TrackCoach,
Lydiard did not coach Ron Clarke, Lasse Viren, or John Walker.
Only Walker was from NZ. Just thought you should know this.
Lydiard spent 19 months in Finland and was highly influential.
Check out "Finnish Running Secrets", a RW article by Matti Hannus, who described Viren's coach's approach as a combination of Nurmi, Igloi, Lydiard and Cerutty.
Deanouk wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:keino ran a magnificent 3'36 in a tactical race in cold, windy, miserable edinburgh, destroying young pretender, quax
edinburgh at altitude ???
keino also split 3'36.7 in a mile race on dirt in london
keino ran his 2nd, 3rd & 4th fastest 1500s at sea- level
More rubbish.
Anyone else claim a 3:36 performance on synthetic from any other runner was 'magnificent', and you'd laugh at them. Cold or not in Edinburgh, running a 3:36.6 with a 44.3 last 300 is piss poor. That is no indication of a 3:26 runner as you so ludicrously claim.
Neither is a 3:36.7 1500 split in a 3:53.8 Mile in London in 67 anything to shout about. Nor is it some indication that Keino ran some great races at sea level. A last 109 yds of 17.1 is pathetic. That's 15.9 for 100m or 63.6 pace for 440yds. He was practically dying on his feet. Cordner Nelson wrote in "The Milers" that, "his legs almost buckled under him as he finished in 3:53.8"
Using IAAF points for performances and looking at only his 1500 and Mile performances, Keino ran his 1st, 2nd and 4th best times at Altitude: -
3:34.9 in Mexico City,
3:53.1 Mile in Kisumu in 67, (3700ft) ~ 56.2, 59.9, 58.1, 58.9
3:36.8 1500 in Nairobi in 71, (5900ft)
Nelson goes on to state several things about Keino, his 1968 season, his ability to run faster at altitude than sea level and his run in Mexico City: -
"On June 1 (1968) in the high altitude of Nyeri, he (Keino) ran 6miles in 28:39, enough to frighten any sea level runner in the world. A week later in Nairobi (5900ft altitude), he ran a mile in 4:01.9. He showed more aptitude at the altitude on July 6, again at Nairobi, when he won a double gold - 3 miles in 13:48.8 & 6miles in 28:51.8.
But when he came down to sea level and ran in Scandinavia, he was mysteriously slower."
"Jipcho circled the track swiftly in 56 secs, with Keino (56.6) right behind......He knew there was only one way to beat Ryun. HE HAD TO TAKE EVERY POSSIBLE ADVANTAGE OF HIS BODY'S UNCOMMON ABILITY TO UTILIZE OXYGEN, DEVELOPED FROM A LIFETIME OF ACTIVITY AT HIGH ALTITUDE."............"Then Keino actually increased his pace! To experts who believed THE ALTITUDE MYTH, it seemed impossible, especially after his hectic days of wasted energy in the past week."
"Keino had run 200m in 27.5 & he was slowing very little in the homestretch. HE WAS SHOWING SURPRISED PHYSIOLOGISTS THINGS THEY COULD NEVER LEARN FROM THEIR EXPERIMENTS. HE WAS SHOWING THEM THAT 1500M RUNNERS GAINED SPEED FROM THE ALTITUDE, LIKE 800M RUNNERS, AND THE FORTUNATE ALTITUDE TRAINED RUNNERS LOST LESS SPEED THAN THEY GAINED."
Seems like Nelson knew exactly what was what. That altitude born athletes have an advantage over sea level born ones when running at altitude, and that some altitude born runners (e.g Keino) had a bigger advantage still. In fact he claims Keino actually ran faster and better at altitude in races of 1500m, than he did at sea level, as his other altitude performances indicate.
Thanks for re-iterating my point that Keino's best races came at altitude. Time-wise his altitude races at least MATCHED his sea-level times. For Vento to say Keino was on the decline after 1968 is rubbish. Keino was a world-leading miler 1969 thru 1972. Plenty of opportunities in those years to run close to his 3:34.9 from Mexico City.
So what does Vento think Herb Elliot was capable of in 1960? A raked smooth cinders track and/or a meticulously manicured grass track (just ask Snell) is just as fast as the Mexico City track.
mr. obvious wrote:
He also frequently complains to moderators and has posts removed when they challenge him or point out his flawed predictions.
And he's done it again on this thread.
I
Using the evidence from Kiplagat's performances, it would appear that the NCAA conversion tables are pretty useless and are to be used as a guide to sea level born and based runners. Even then, they are way too generous for elites.
Umm, ever heard of Cristian Soratos?
ISBN - I think you'll find Nairobi is not uniformly 5,889 feet in altitude. I doubt many 220 square mile areas are.
For instance, the roundabout at the intersection at the A104 and Haile Selaissie Avenue is at 5,458 feet, while the main runway at the airport is at 5,342 feet.
Just sayin'
messi wrote:Thanks for re-iterating my point that Keino's best races came at altitude
utter driivel
he broke jazy's ole wr by 0.2s
he jogged around dead fuucking last at start
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=h4va2_x6tMwime-wise his altitude races at least MATCHED his sea-level times
rubbish
if not for incomparable Ryun at just 19y, keino wouda been 1 mie wr holder off a jog !!!
For Vento to say Keino was on the decline after 1968 is rubbish
nonsense
keino wanted to quit after '68
he hardly ran in '69, hoping to announce retirement
he was "forced back" to run with no more training camps for '70, but still in likely 3'31+ shape at decrepit
Keino was a world-leading miler 1969 thru 1972
clueless
he effectively retired after '68
he ran some '69 in "retirement"
he wanted to retire after '68
Plenty of opportunities in those years to run close to his 3:34.9 from Mexico City
utter rubbish
never in same shape again
offer 3'34.9-mexico at sea-level on some noteworty calculations
So what does Vento think Herb Elliot was capable of in 1960?
lotta wide running on a dirt track, after rounds
easily
~ 3'30
but herb was no keino, let alone Ryun
A raked smooth cinders track and/or a meticulously manicured grass track (just ask Snell) is just as fast as the Mexico City track
utter fuucking drivel
snell never ran on a synthetic track, let alone mexico
Wow! If Keino was in 3:26 shape at the Mexico Olympics, that means the guy who beat him in the 5000m must have been in 3:25 shape. Then the two guys who beat the 5000m winner in the 10000m must have been in even better shape.
In head to head races and comparisons of win/loss performances, Keino was the 4th best distance runner at The MC Olympics.
ventolin^3 wrote:
snell never ran on a synthetic track, let alone mexico
Small point: this is false.
Take Snell's 1965 race against Ryun and Grelle in the American championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwAV3 said "never." "Never" means "not once." So his statement was wrong.
Sorry, meant to add this from Sports Illustrated's account: "Under the runners was an exceptionally fast track. Made of Grasstex, an asphalt composition material, it had been laid down in Balboa Stadium last September at a cost of $40,000."
Just to be clear: "asphalt composition" = "synthetic." But, again, it's a minor point.
lease wrote:Take Snell's 1965 race against Ryun and Grelle in the American championship:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E-R97LShwAV3 said "never." "Never" means "not once." So his statement was wrong.
it seemed an awfully long distance just to get to finish line the 1st time ?!
looks like 7s to get to it ?!
To thumb wrote:Wow! If Keino was in 3:26 shape at the Mexico Olympics, that means the guy who beat him in the 5000m must have been in 3:25 shape
yeah
who claims kennster was in 3'25 shape in 12'37 ???
i saw every circuit 1500 he ever ran, including the outrageous win over kaouch which isn't on youtube
he shouda been jailed for how wide he pushed kaouch out in home stretch
Then the two guys who beat the 5000m winner in the 10000m must have been in even better shape
same logic makes kamathi who walloped geb in '01 a 12'38/26'20 guy ?!
In head to head races and comparisons of win/loss performances, Keino was the 4th best distance runner at The MC Olympics
eh ???
who in the 5k or 10k final also got into 1500 final ???
ventolin^3 wrote:
it seemed an awfully long distance just to get to finish line the 1st time ?!
looks like 7s to get to it ?!
Not sure whether this is a troll post or not...but if you watch the video, you'll see that the race ends at the same point on the (440y) track where it started.
Quite a few mile races back then had starts/finishes in the middle of the home straight; if you watch the whole race, you'll see that the runners' finish line is only (very) roughly 50m from the end of the curve.
lease wrote:
Sorry, meant to add this from Sports Illustrated's account: "Under the runners was an exceptionally fast track. Made of Grasstex, an asphalt composition material, it had been laid down in Balboa Stadium last September at a cost of $40,000."
Just to be clear: "asphalt composition" = "synthetic." But, again, it's a minor point.
Grasstex tracks did/would not suit Snell's bulky frame. He got beaten by John Davies at the 1964 opening of the venerable Caledonian Grounds. Said synthetic tracks trashed his legs way more than cinders. Grass suited Snell more than any other surface because it absorbed his pounding legs.
After Keino's "retirement" in 1968 he won the Commonwealth Games, the 1971 Munich Pre-Olympic, plus gold & silver at Munich.....AND silver to Bayi at 1973 All African Champs. Pretty good resume for a washed-up semi-retired runner.
I am sure Rod Dixon would be bemused by Vento's description of Keino.
messi wrote:
After Keino's "retirement" in 1968 he won the Commonwealth Games, the 1971 Munich Pre-Olympic, plus gold & silver at Munich.....AND silver to Bayi at 1973 All African Champs. Pretty good resume for a washed-up semi-retired runner.
I am sure Rod Dixon would be bemused by Vento's description of Keino.
This ventolin cat seems to be bat shit crazy
Idiot Ventoin didn't realize it was a 440 yard track. Four laps exactly to the mile.