Pose = crazy???

Of course... but the lift of say 6 cm occurs partly through elastic energy and partly to (probably unvoluntary) muscle contraction. At every step you have to compensate for the loss of energy. There is no 100% elastic bounce.

paul wrote:

Of course... but the lift of say 6 cm occurs partly through elastic energy and partly to (probably unvoluntary) muscle contraction. At every step you have to compensate for the loss of energy. There is no 100% elastic bounce.

Stored elastic energy is not capable of generating any lift higher than the original starting height (assuming perfect conservation of energy). Think superballs.

Anything higher can only be attributed to the addition of muscular exertion (and to suggest it is unvoluntary is to posit that children don't really go through several months of staggering around unbalanced and falling on their butts as they try to learn to walk).

Probably unvoluntary is a wrong word,

it should be "not consciously controllable movement": you push off and feel you apply force to the ground, but you cannot do that by controlling individual muscles. You just 'issue the command' PUSH and some neural system image does it for you.

paul wrote:

it should be "not consciously controllable movement": you push off and feel you apply force to the ground, but you cannot do that by controlling individual muscles. You just 'issue the command' PUSH and some neural system image does it for you.

Which is it? Is it "not consciously controlled" or do you "issue the command"?

How do you "not consciously" control whether you push enough to go 7 minutes a mile or if you push enough to go 5 minutes a mile?

Are you a certifed expert or a certified 'expert'?

I mean the movement itself (controlling all the muscles involved, the timing of muscular contraction and relaxation) is not consciously controlled.

But the command is consciously controlled. If you want to run 5 minute miles you issue a harder command, very consciously.

I'm a certified expert in a lot of areas but not in pose :-)

paul wrote:

I mean the movement itself (controlling all the muscles involved, the timing of muscular contraction and relaxation) is not consciously controlled.

Which is still contradictory. You have to consciously command the overall movement with the magnitude of force to be applied. It is also possible to consciouly NOT command the movement and you will genuinely fall forward (and kiss the ground).

Similar to consciouly applying enough force to the gas pedal to go 50 km/h versus 20 km/h but not actually commanding the firing of individual spark plugs.

Asterix wrote:

Fortunately for me, you can't burn science-minded people at the stake anymore.

Wow. You mean you could at one time? When was this?

Burning accused heretics, witches, and recusant Catholics at the stake--this I've heard of. But who are these 'science-minded people' who got torched? Names and dates, please.

THE WORLD IS ROUND

oops, now I'm in prison

Comrade Ogilvy wrote:

Wow. You mean you could at one time? When was this?

Burning accused heretics, witches, and recusant Catholics at the stake--this I've heard of. But who are these 'science-minded people' who got torched? Names and dates, please.

Geeze, you got me. I shouldn't have used the burning at the stake analogy when folks such as Galileo or any others who dealt with the Spanish Inquisition faced other imaginative means of persuasion.

By the way, Comrade, how did the Party deal with dissenters under the glory days of Stalin?

Asterix,

Actually my RELIGION happens to be Christianity. Despite your accusations neither I nor Dr. Romanov disagree's with Sir Isaac Newton. It is hard to have a discussion with you when you continue to lie. Why do you continue to do this?

Jhuffman wrote:

Actually my RELIGION happens to be Christianity. Despite your accusations neither I nor Dr. Romanov disagree's with Sir Isaac Newton. It is hard to have a discussion with you when you continue to lie. Why do you continue to do this?

We've been over this a dozen times. Want the specific cites?

You (and POSE) continue to claim you can 'fall forward' and somehow generate forward motion using only gravity. (We even have at least one example where someone is trying to claim you can 'fall uphill' using POSE and gravity.)

We've got folks right in this very thread who are suggesting stored elastic energy can somehow magically output more than was initially stored to propel someone to greater heights.

If you and the good doctor do not disagree with Newton, then I presume there will be no more references here or on the POSE website about gravity pulling you forward (which includes the whole not pushing thing).

What are the chances of this happening?

Forefoot landing I agree with. Not touching your heel to the ground to help disipate impact shock is asking for injury. It's clearly a flawed method of running.

Asterix wrote:

Fortunately for me, you can't burn science-minded people at the stake anymore.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow. You mean you could at one time? When was this?

Burning accused heretics, witches, and recusant Catholics at the stake--this I've heard of. But who are these 'science-minded people' who got torched? Names and dates, please

Giordano Bruno - Burned at the stake February 17, 1600

Asterix,

This article is very clear of the relationship between push off and pull in regards to the POSE METHOD position on running. Again neither I or anyone associated with Pose Method as said that there is no pushoff, but you don't seem to be listening to me.

paul wrote:

I mean the movement itself (controlling all the muscles involved, the timing of muscular contraction and relaxation) is not consciously controlled.

But the command is consciously controlled. If you want to run 5 minute miles you issue a harder command, very consciously.

I'm a certified expert in a lot of areas but not in pose :-)

Paul + Asterix,

Lets not get side-tracked on this one. I think you both have the same meaning in your heads.

The ACTION is voluntary, the activation patterns of the muscles involved in the action are unconscious. This is the way of natural movement. When i sit here typing, i intend my fingers to move and they do - i'm certainly not thinking about activating this muscle at that time or whatever.

A point from earlier in the thread that escaped comment:

Dr. R. appears to take the lack of thigh extensor activity after mid-stance as evidence for there being no driving action. That is quite a leap.

Jhuffman wrote:

Again neither I or anyone associated with Pose Method as said that there is no pushoff, but you don't seem to be listening to me.

Right. Gotcha. I must have been misdirected to a fake website when I found:

"One of the first requirements in this new paradigm of running is not to push off"

"The point is that there is no "push off" in the Pose Method of running"

I'll really try and pay better attention in the future to make sure I don't misunderstand something so elemental as no push-off.

Ah what the heck, how about:

http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000357.html

"Tay Han Seng,

In Pose method we do not Push ground, we fall forward from the point of support.

Dr.Romanov."

http://www.posetech.com/library/dr-03-05-008.html

(under the "Don't" list):

# Push-off on landing - only pull up

http://www.posetech.com/library/dr-08-30-006.html

"Do not push off and toe off from the ground."

Alex S wrote:

A point from earlier in the thread that escaped comment:

Dr. R. appears to take the lack of thigh extensor activity after mid-stance as evidence for there being no driving action. That is quite a leap.

Wasn't posted by me, but in another thread someone pointed to information that explained the timing of the firing of the muscle with respect to whether it was actually delivering any force.

Should be found with the right search criteria.

Somehow I missed this thread. I don't care to wade through the 7 pages. My post will likely get lost, but oh well!:p

I don't claim myself as a proponent of the 'Pose Method'. However, I have checked out their site and found/tried some of their concepts. Namely, I have trained in basic shoes for 2 3/4 years with much success, in terms of health AND performance. Simply being in a basic shoe forces you to 'naturally' have better, more economical biomechanics. The second thing I got from their site is the slight forward lean-- just the sensation of feeling like you're going to fall and then quickening your turnover to keep from falling. I believe this helps to reduce tension within the body... you feel more relaxed running. Tension is stress, and stress causes injuries. The last thing is 'lifting' instead of 'pushing' off the ground.... again, I think this comes down to making you feel more relaxed while running, rather than feeling like you're 'forcing' yourself to move forward.

There is no need to 'consciously' or 'force' a significant change in your biomechanics in any way (which is one thing I have against Pose). Just as an example-- going from heel-to-toe mechanics to toe-to-heel mechanics. Not that this is impossible to do. Your mechanics should be natural and feel natural to you.