Editor's Note: We changed the title of the thread to be more descriptive. Original title was "Mallard Creek DQ." Here is an article about the DQ: http://charlotteobserver.com/s...
Here is a new video showing what the runner in question did earlier in the meet after winning the 300 hurdles. The official claim she warned him after that win even though what he did in that win seems fine: https://x.com/Sheena_Marie3/st...
except that's not what happened. Him and his coach both said he wasn't given a warning earlier, but even if you think they are lying it wasn't something similar. Everyone in here is saying all he had to do was wait until crossing the line before celebrating and he would have been fine. But that's exactly what he did earlier and that apparently wasn't fine either.
Thats not what I heard, it was he pulled some sort of BS and was told to be cool. So....?
Bottom line.....the kid was being a punk,and it cost him/them.
I guess I grew up in an area where people were taught respect and to follow the rules, because a lot of this discussion just baffles me as if you guys are speaking a different language.
There’s not even a discussion, in my mind, that multiple rules (likely two) were violated. The athlete was taunting and showboating. Pretending otherwise is a non-starter and is not supported by the clear video evidence.
The discussion should be about whether a DQ is an appropriate punishment. I think most of us agree it is not. But the answer also shouldn’t be that we throw all of our long-held traditions of basic sportsmanship out the window because we don’t like how the rule was enforced on this one occasion.
Imagine Ireland's Eamonn Coghlan as he passed Dmitriy Dmitriyev of the Soviet Union in the final of the 5,000 meters at the 1983 World Championships at the Olympic Stadium in Helsinki, Finland - then getting disqualified for an egregious display of enthusiasm?!?! It never even entered into the minds of “Boomers” like me.
Since these situations are met with so much controversy and the vast majority disagree with the decisions by the officials, why do they continue to happen and why are the rules not changed?
I’ll also add, again, that it literally doesn’t matter if there was a prior warning. This level of misconduct does not warrant a DQ either way. Sometimes kids do stupid things. We need to keep a sense of proportionality. Take the kid aside and talk to him. Do it more than once if you have to. Then give him a smile, a congratulations for the title, and everyone moves on. Sometimes lessons take a while to stick. Going way over the top as an official only shows that the official cares about no one but themselves and their perverted sense of justice for a very very minor violation.
I guess I grew up in an area where people were taught respect and to follow the rules, because a lot of this discussion just baffles me as if you guys are speaking a different language.
There’s not even a discussion, in my mind, that multiple rules (likely two) were violated. The athlete was taunting and showboating. Pretending otherwise is a non-starter and is not supported by the clear video evidence.
The discussion should be about whether a DQ is an appropriate punishment. I think most of us agree it is not. But the answer also shouldn’t be that we throw all of our long-held traditions of basic sportsmanship out the window because we don’t like how the rule was enforced on this one occasion.
First, that "police officer" analogy is spot on. If Rule 4-6 is incredibly gray, and the meet director explicitly told everyone at the coaches' meeting that there would be absolutely zero tolerance for celebrating before the line, then the officials' hands were tied.
To the extent that the police officer analogy is spot on, it's in exactly the opposite way you suggest. Police have incredibly broad discretion on whether to pull someone over or not, whether to give them a warning or a ticket, and what kind of ticket to give (the only time I've been pulled over in the past dozen years, I was given a non-moving violation instead of speeding specifically because I have a CDL and that would have increased the gravity and decreased the court's ability to adjust the penalty - i.e., he took into account the context and impact of the penalty.) And what is definitely true is that the posted speed limit is never the enforced speed limit, unless an officer is singling you out and looking for a reason to pull you over.
Several people have said some variation of the quote I've copied above: that people were explicitly told at the coaches' meeting that there was zero tolerance for celebrating before the finish line - THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN - and/or that the rulebook singles out celebrations before the finish - THAT'S NOT IN THE RULEBOOK. The rulebook is not specific on which actions are unacceptable or unsporting, or constitute taunting, and no one at the coaches' or athletes' meeting used "zero tolerance" or any equivalent phrase, or made any specific reference to celebrating before the finish line rather than after. The athletes were told to "act like you've been there before."
I should probably just drop this, but I'll be at this meet again next year and my fear is that we end up going the way of the soft apologists who are saying "Yeah, this was an overreaction and they probably shouldn't have been disqualified, but the athletes need to be more careful." And then we end up next year with the solution that we put more prohibitions in writing, be very explicit in listing a number of banned acts, and then it will be ok to issue the same rulings that happened this year. THAT'S EXACTLY THE WRONG LESSON. The lesson is that, probably influenced by state association staff who would not be sitting with the officials in any other sport, some officials made a series of escalating bad decisions that eventually led to an inexcusable disqualification in the final race of a four-day meet. And the decision was WRONG - not overly harsh, not insufficiently predicated in pre-meet communication, but straight up punished something that was totally fine. We shouldn't change procedures to allow someone to justify this as a correct call, we should insure we aren't doing anything that leads to a similar call in the future. And that means sticking to the high-level, subjective wording that is in the rulebook, because in the normal course of a meet, behavior that should lead to disqualification is not common, and so there shouldn't be an objective list that tries to delineate what those behaviors specifically are.
Personally, I wouldn't have dq'ed the team. I don't mind a little celebration but I don't make the rules. This issue had probably been brought up at a rules meeting before the season and again before this meet. It probably had barely been enforced all season as usually happens.
As a coach I would have been all over my athletes about behavior all season. I have been reminding my kids about their language and actions all season. Some of it is just habit. I wouldn't want to leave the result of a season in the hands of an official who may or may not call something.
Personally, I wouldn't have dq'ed the team. I don't mind a little celebration but I don't make the rules. This issue had probably been brought up at a rules meeting before the season and again before this meet. It probably had barely been enforced all season as usually happens.
As a coach I would have been all over my athletes about behavior all season. I have been reminding my kids about their language and actions all season. Some of it is just habit. I wouldn't want to leave the result of a season in the hands of an official who may or may not call something.
In this case what action would you have reminded them not to do?
I guess I grew up in an area where people were taught respect and to follow the rules, because a lot of this discussion just baffles me as if you guys are speaking a different language.
There’s not even a discussion, in my mind, that multiple rules (likely two) were violated. The athlete was taunting and showboating. Pretending otherwise is a non-starter and is not supported by the clear video evidence.
The discussion should be about whether a DQ is an appropriate punishment. I think most of us agree it is not. But the answer also shouldn’t be that we throw all of our long-held traditions of basic sportsmanship out the window because we don’t like how the rule was enforced on this one occasion.
What did he do that was not good sportsmanship?
Yelling and taunting after the first race, and taunting in the second race before the finish line by his hand in a manner that is clearly not part of his stride pattern. The first video is actually worse and would be a DQ by most if not all high school officials in my area (I’ve asked).
I am an old fashioned guy who dislikes a lot of the showboating and taunting in other sports, but I am struggling to see what this kid did that warranted this level of response. I think I would agree with the DQ if he'd gotten in someone's face after and said something rude, but he appears to be a wholesome kid excited about his solid performance. I can't really hear what he is saying, but certainly holding up your hand while crossing the finish line isn't grounds for this response. WHAT AM I MISSING?
The rules exist for a reason. We don’t do right by young student athletes by pretending the rules aren’t what they are. It creates confusion.
It was a clear rules violation. It’s on video. I just don’t agree at all with the DQ. Use it as a teaching moment. But it’s hard to teach when a bunch of adults muddy the waters by pretending some combination of (1) rules don’t matter; and (2) it’s okay to violate the rules as long as you personally think the rule is stupid.
I am an old fashioned guy who dislikes a lot of the showboating and taunting in other sports, but I am struggling to see what this kid did that warranted this level of response. I think I would agree with the DQ if he'd gotten in someone's face after and said something rude, but he appears to be a wholesome kid excited about his solid performance. I can't really hear what he is saying, but certainly holding up your hand while crossing the finish line isn't grounds for this response. WHAT AM I MISSING?
You’re half right. The issue is the level of punishment. The issue is NOT whether the rule is violated. That is already clear by the video. The rules were violated.
except that's not what happened. Him and his coach both said he wasn't given a warning earlier, but even if you think they are lying it wasn't something similar. Everyone in here is saying all he had to do was wait until crossing the line before celebrating and he would have been fine. But that's exactly what he did earlier and that apparently wasn't fine either.
Thats not what I heard, it was he pulled some sort of BS and was told to be cool. So....?
Bottom line.....the kid was being a punk,and it cost him/them.
What a ridiculous take.
First, there is nothing "punk"-like about holding up five fingers, while crossing the line and staring straight ahead (there was no "taunt" of any fellow competitors), when your team is claiming a fifth straight title.
And I think the use of the term "punk" in this case is a bit of a reveal about your perspective.
And if the prior "BS" that he "pulled" was the totally normal celebration after winning the 300m hurdles, then you have a warped perspective on what constitutes "BS" in athletics.
Thats not what I heard, it was he pulled some sort of BS and was told to be cool. So....?
Bottom line.....the kid was being a punk,and it cost him/them.
What a ridiculous take.
First, there is nothing "punk"-like about holding up five fingers, while crossing the line and staring straight ahead (there was no "taunt" of any fellow competitors), when your team is claiming a fifth straight title.
And I think the use of the term "punk" in this case is a bit of a reveal about your perspective.
And if the prior "BS" that he "pulled" was the totally normal celebration after winning the 300m hurdles, then you have a warped perspective on what constitutes "BS" in athletics.
OBVIOUSLY.....the old grumps who ran the meet made it very clear do not be doing anything that might ne taken as disrespetful.
The kid knew the depth of the water and STILL couldn;t control himself.
The five was how many times his team had won the title, yep.....a punkish move.
I am an old fashioned guy who dislikes a lot of the showboating and taunting in other sports, but I am struggling to see what this kid did that warranted this level of response. I think I would agree with the DQ if he'd gotten in someone's face after and said something rude, but he appears to be a wholesome kid excited about his solid performance. I can't really hear what he is saying, but certainly holding up your hand while crossing the finish line isn't grounds for this response. WHAT AM I MISSING?
You’re half right. The issue is the level of punishment. The issue is NOT whether the rule is violated. That is already clear by the video. The rules were violated.
I agree. I guess my question as a distance runner is this: If the female 3200 runner came across the line with a number 1 in the air, would she have been DQed?
More importantly, would Michael Stember made the airplane coming across the line in the 800, would this official have DQed him? That was his signature move in the day.
I guess I grew up in an area where people were taught respect and to follow the rules, because a lot of this discussion just baffles me as if you guys are speaking a different language.
There’s not even a discussion, in my mind, that multiple rules (likely two) were violated. The athlete was taunting and showboating. Pretending otherwise is a non-starter and is not supported by the clear video evidence.
The discussion should be about whether a DQ is an appropriate punishment. I think most of us agree it is not. But the answer also shouldn’t be that we throw all of our long-held traditions of basic sportsmanship out the window because we don’t like how the rule was enforced on this one occasion.
What about the rules you guys!!!!! 😭😭
If they made a rule that you had to eat your own excrement you would probably follow that as well wouldn't you?
Yelling and taunting after the first race, and taunting in the second race before the finish line by his hand in a manner that is clearly not part of his stride pattern. The first video is actually worse and would be a DQ by most if not all high school officials in my area (I’ve asked).
you asked all high school officials that quickly? And what was the taunt in the first video?
one solution here, is 2nd place 4x4 and 2nd place team refuse their golds or team trophies. or everyone supports the protest. that also teaches the kids a sportsmanship lesson. "i wanted to win but not this way."
in soccer the equivalent is a team handed a bad penalty kick rolls the keeper the shot or shanks it wide. there may be a winner today but not off this nonsense.