At least those expansion teams tried. Tanking and load management have been much bigger issues during LeBron's career. He's been able to benefit from 8 to 10 teams tanking depending on the year. The NBA literally had to alter the playoff qualification structure during LeBron's career to incentivize more teams to actually try.
Winning 72 games isn't that much different than the Lakers winning 69 in the 1970s, the Celtics winning 67 in the 1980s, or the Warriors winning 73 in the 2010s.
The goal is to win the title. Jordan won 6, LeBron 4. Going to the Finals is nice but it's not enough. Ask Buffalo Bills fans how they feel about the Bills going to four Super Bowls in a row but not winning any of them.
Your Allen Iverson example is nothing but speculative fantasy. The reality is Jordan won more championships and MVP awards than LeBron, and it took him less years to do it.
Goal is to win a title so Bill Russell is #1 in your eyes right?
Only mentioned Iverson because some great players don't end up in winning situations. An Expansion teams front office and entire organization is not going to be amply equipped the same way an established one would. They have no history no culture and in comparison.. No Fans
Grizzlies(95) didn't even make the playoffs for a decade. Magic made the playoffs in a few years because they drafted freakin shaq and Penny. 73-9 Warriors are much more impressive than the 72-10 Bulls No expansion teams in the league at all. Anyone trying to argue not making the championship is better than losing lost the argument from the start lol that is really your argument? Imagine me saying Athing mu not going to the last Olympics makes her Olympic record better than Keely's
Jordan is #1.
Iverson didn't play for an expansion team. Maybe if Iverson was a more dedicated team leader who committed to practice, he would have won more.
Because expansion teams are new and wanting to attract fans, they do everything they can to get better. The Charlotte Hornets are a good example. They had competitive teams for most of the 90s.
During LeBron's career and when the Warriors won 73 games, tanking and load management have been a leaguewide epidemic affecting the level of competition much more than a few expansion teams did in Jordan's era. Why are you ignoring the reality of there being up to one-third of the league actively trying to lose games and stars sitting out games? Don't you realize it's easier to win when the other team isn't even trying or their best player isn't even playing?
6 rings is better than 4 no matter how you try to spin it. If you want to harp on competition level, do some research on how historically weak the Eastern Conference was when LeBron was there. Going to the Finals out of the Leastern Conference wasn't as great of an accomplishment as you're making it out to be.
Lebron’s finals record is just not a great argument when he has carried all of his teams to those finals. Basketball is a team sport so trying to pin it against the individual seems weird when competition is so variable.
LOL. Dwyane Wade didn't need to be carried. He won a championship with the Heat before LeBron went ring chasing by joining him in Miami.
Yeah and the same argument can be made about Pippen/Jordan.
Both are fantastic players who made us rethink what was possible in not just basketball but in all of sports and even life. The GOAT debate makes us blind to the greatness they achieved.
Fine. Just count the championship wins. Jordan had 6 in his first 13 seasons. LeBron needed 17 seasons to get his 4th.
Cool. Any analysis beyond “6 RiNgS!!!”
Not sure how old everyone is on this thread, but the elimination of the ‘hand check’ in the NBA in 2004-05 made this argument even possible. It was a terrible decision by the NBA; turned the game into a defense-less spectacle of constant three-pointers and unchallenged dunks. Jordan is BY FAR a better one-on-one and post-up player than LeBron. Go watch the highlight compilations. Jordan’s highlights are him doing incredibly acrobatic moves WHILE BEING HAND CHECKED and fouled. His post-up game was incredible. There was virtually nothing a defender could do to stop him from getting a shot off. LeBron benefitted immensely from the defense not being allowed to hand check. His post up game is weak as hell WITHOUT HAND CHECKS. Go watch the highlights- his moves are slow and clunky; he would’ve been stopped with hand checks most of the time. As other NBA legends and commentators have said, Jordan would average 40-50 points per game in today’s NBA. Not being allowed to touch him with your hands?? Are you kidding me?? He shot 50% lifetime with hand checks! He created his own shots, in traffic / in the post. Plus he was incredible in the clutch and shot 84% from the line, so at the end of games against him, you’re screwed. Oh, and he was 1st team All-Defense for a decade (winning defensive player of the year in in 1988). MJ also played every game he could. Look at all his 82 games played seasons (including his very last season after coming out of retirement). On the flip side, LeBron would have trouble averaging 25 in the 80s/90s NBA. His post game blows and he’s not a great ball handler. Hand checks would cause him all sorts of trouble. Imagine how much more of a biitch he’d be getting grabbed every time he drives to the hole? How does he only shoot 50% from the floor and average more turnovers than MJ in this defense-free era? And yes- his ABSURD flopping certainly tarnished his legacy. Truly embarrassing. And lastly- what’s with missing so many games in the Lakers era? The fans want to see the stars, right? It’s really not a difficult argument. Most NBA’rs (past and present) agree: if you need to win a game, you go with MJ all day long. Better scorer, better ball handler, better defense, and better in the clutch. NEVER losing on the biggest stage vs losing 60% of the time on the biggest stage. What are we even talking about here? And honestly, the longer LeBron has played, the more THAT has become his legacy: the guy that was very good that played for a long time. (…but not the GOAT.)
Not sure how old everyone is on this thread, but the elimination of the ‘hand check’ in the NBA in 2004-05 made this argument even possible. It was a terrible decision by the NBA; turned the game into a defense-less spectacle of constant three-pointers and unchallenged dunks. Jordan is BY FAR a better one-on-one and post-up player than LeBron. Go watch the highlight compilations. Jordan’s highlights are him doing incredibly acrobatic moves WHILE BEING HAND CHECKED and fouled. His post-up game was incredible. There was virtually nothing a defender could do to stop him from getting a shot off. LeBron benefitted immensely from the defense not being allowed to hand check. His post up game is weak as hell WITHOUT HAND CHECKS. Go watch the highlights- his moves are slow and clunky; he would’ve been stopped with hand checks most of the time. As other NBA legends and commentators have said, Jordan would average 40-50 points per game in today’s NBA. Not being allowed to touch him with your hands?? Are you kidding me?? He shot 50% lifetime with hand checks! He created his own shots, in traffic / in the post. Plus he was incredible in the clutch and shot 84% from the line, so at the end of games against him, you’re screwed. Oh, and he was 1st team All-Defense for a decade (winning defensive player of the year in in 1988). MJ also played every game he could. Look at all his 82 games played seasons (including his very last season after coming out of retirement). On the flip side, LeBron would have trouble averaging 25 in the 80s/90s NBA. His post game blows and he’s not a great ball handler. Hand checks would cause him all sorts of trouble. Imagine how much more of a biitch he’d be getting grabbed every time he drives to the hole? How does he only shoot 50% from the floor and average more turnovers than MJ in this defense-free era? And yes- his ABSURD flopping certainly tarnished his legacy. Truly embarrassing. And lastly- what’s with missing so many games in the Lakers era? The fans want to see the stars, right? It’s really not a difficult argument. Most NBA’rs (past and present) agree: if you need to win a game, you go with MJ all day long. Better scorer, better ball handler, better defense, and better in the clutch. NEVER losing on the biggest stage vs losing 60% of the time on the biggest stage. What are we even talking about here? And honestly, the longer LeBron has played, the more THAT has become his legacy: the guy that was very good that played for a long time. (…but not the GOAT.)
lol. Hand check rule is a really weak argument. Have you seen LeBron. Who’s moving/controlling him with a hand check? Ben Wallace, maybe? Karl Malone? Good luck when he blows by.
Look Jordan was great. He’s in the GOAT conversation. Top 4 for sure. But he’s not as great as Lebron.
Not sure how old everyone is on this thread, but the elimination of the ‘hand check’ in the NBA in 2004-05 made this argument even possible. It was a terrible decision by the NBA; turned the game into a defense-less spectacle of constant three-pointers and unchallenged dunks. Jordan is BY FAR a better one-on-one and post-up player than LeBron. Go watch the highlight compilations. Jordan’s highlights are him doing incredibly acrobatic moves WHILE BEING HAND CHECKED and fouled. His post-up game was incredible. There was virtually nothing a defender could do to stop him from getting a shot off. LeBron benefitted immensely from the defense not being allowed to hand check. His post up game is weak as hell WITHOUT HAND CHECKS. Go watch the highlights- his moves are slow and clunky; he would’ve been stopped with hand checks most of the time. As other NBA legends and commentators have said, Jordan would average 40-50 points per game in today’s NBA. Not being allowed to touch him with your hands?? Are you kidding me?? He shot 50% lifetime with hand checks! He created his own shots, in traffic / in the post. Plus he was incredible in the clutch and shot 84% from the line, so at the end of games against him, you’re screwed. Oh, and he was 1st team All-Defense for a decade (winning defensive player of the year in in 1988). MJ also played every game he could. Look at all his 82 games played seasons (including his very last season after coming out of retirement). On the flip side, LeBron would have trouble averaging 25 in the 80s/90s NBA. His post game blows and he’s not a great ball handler. Hand checks would cause him all sorts of trouble. Imagine how much more of a biitch he’d be getting grabbed every time he drives to the hole? How does he only shoot 50% from the floor and average more turnovers than MJ in this defense-free era? And yes- his ABSURD flopping certainly tarnished his legacy. Truly embarrassing. And lastly- what’s with missing so many games in the Lakers era? The fans want to see the stars, right? It’s really not a difficult argument. Most NBA’rs (past and present) agree: if you need to win a game, you go with MJ all day long. Better scorer, better ball handler, better defense, and better in the clutch. NEVER losing on the biggest stage vs losing 60% of the time on the biggest stage. What are we even talking about here? And honestly, the longer LeBron has played, the more THAT has become his legacy: the guy that was very good that played for a long time. (…but not the GOAT.)
lol. Hand check rule is a really weak argument. Have you seen LeBron. Who’s moving/controlling him with a hand check? Ben Wallace, maybe? Karl Malone? Good luck when he blows by.
Look Jordan was great. He’s in the GOAT conversation. Top 4 for sure. But he’s not as great as Lebron.
“Blows by” - LOL! Watch highlights of MJ vs LeBron’s moves. It’s not even close.
Noticed you didn’t dispute anything I said. Typical for LeFlop fans.
LeBron is top 10, I’ll give him that. Played a lot of seasons. LOL
I think there is always a reluctance to give a nod to players that benefited from a very clear advantage of not playing against the best. League was mostly white for a long time. Wilt had a huge advantage. Kareem's era was more fair. But I for one am not inclined to give a best of all time tag to players that are relatively dominant in one aspect of the game. I mean, there was 6 yr-ish span where Shaq was literally unguardable. They invented hack-a-shaq because it was 100% points when he got the ball in the middle. People that didn't witness that time just don't know. Kareem was transformative. Oscar AVERAGED a triple double for a career! But when asked, people (ex players) still say MJ on the eye test/ 'chips. LJ on eye test/career accomplishments/ 'chips with different coaches and players.
This is wildly incorrect. He did that in one season.
lol. Hand check rule is a really weak argument. Have you seen LeBron. Who’s moving/controlling him with a hand check? Ben Wallace, maybe? Karl Malone? Good luck when he blows by.
Look Jordan was great. He’s in the GOAT conversation. Top 4 for sure. But he’s not as great as Lebron.
“Blows by” - LOL! Watch highlights of MJ vs LeBron’s moves. It’s not even close.
Noticed you didn’t dispute anything I said. Typical for LeFlop fans.
LeBron is top 10, I’ll give him that. Played a lot of seasons. LOL
Admittedly, you didn’t have anything much more than “hand-checking.” If Jordan hand-checked LeBron, he would probably lose an arm. :/
Imagine excelling in an intentionally-no defense era, and calling yourself the GOAT. LOL- GTFOH!!
Anyone going to dispute any of the FACTS here? This was too easy.
”Not sure how old everyone is on this thread, but the elimination of the ‘hand check’ in the NBA in 2004-05 made this argument even possible. It was a terrible decision by the NBA; turned the game into a defense-less spectacle of constant three-pointers and unchallenged dunks.
Jordan is BY FAR a better one-on-one and post-up player than LeBron. Go watch the highlight compilations. Jordan’s highlights are him doing incredibly acrobatic moves WHILE BEING HAND CHECKED and fouled. His post-up game was incredible. There was virtually nothing a defender could do to stop him from getting a shot off.
LeBron benefitted immensely from the defense not being allowed to hand check. His post up game is weak as hell WITHOUT HAND CHECKS. Go watch the highlights- his moves are slow and clunky; he would’ve been stopped with hand checks most of the time.
As other NBA legends and commentators have said, Jordan would average 40-50 points per game in today’s NBA. Not being allowed to touch him with your hands?? Are you kidding me?? He shot 50% lifetime with hand checks! He created his own shots, in traffic / in the post. Plus he was incredible in the clutch and shot 84% from the line, so at the end of games against him, you’re screwed. Oh, and he was 1st team All-Defense for a decade (winning defensive player of the year in in 1988). MJ also played every game he could. Look at all his 82 games played seasons (including his very last season after coming out of retirement).
On the flip side, LeBron would have trouble averaging 25 in the 80s/90s NBA. His post game blows and he’s not a great ball handler. Hand checks would cause him all sorts of trouble. Imagine how much more of a biitch he’d be getting grabbed every time he drives to the hole? How does he only shoot 50% from the floor and average more turnovers than MJ in this defense-free era? And yes- his ABSURD flopping certainly tarnished his legacy. Truly embarrassing. And lastly- what’s with missing so many games in the Lakers era? The fans want to see the stars, right?
It’s really not a difficult argument. Most NBA’rs (past and present) agree: if you need to win a game, you go with MJ all day long. Better scorer, better ball handler, better defense, and better in the clutch. NEVER losing on the biggest stage vs losing 60% of the time on the biggest stage. What are we even talking about here?
And honestly, the longer LeBron has played, the more THAT has become his legacy: the guy that was very good that played for a long time. (…but not the GOAT.)”
Imagine excelling in an intentionally-no defense era, and calling yourself the GOAT. LOL- GTFOH!!
Anyone going to dispute any of the FACTS here? This was too easy.
”Not sure how old everyone is on this thread, but the elimination of the ‘hand check’ in the NBA in 2004-05 made this argument even possible. It was a terrible decision by the NBA; turned the game into a defense-less spectacle of constant three-pointers and unchallenged dunks.
Jordan is BY FAR a better one-on-one and post-up player than LeBron. Go watch the highlight compilations. Jordan’s highlights are him doing incredibly acrobatic moves WHILE BEING HAND CHECKED and fouled. His post-up game was incredible. There was virtually nothing a defender could do to stop him from getting a shot off.
LeBron benefitted immensely from the defense not being allowed to hand check. His post up game is weak as hell WITHOUT HAND CHECKS. Go watch the highlights- his moves are slow and clunky; he would’ve been stopped with hand checks most of the time.
As other NBA legends and commentators have said, Jordan would average 40-50 points per game in today’s NBA. Not being allowed to touch him with your hands?? Are you kidding me?? He shot 50% lifetime with hand checks! He created his own shots, in traffic / in the post. Plus he was incredible in the clutch and shot 84% from the line, so at the end of games against him, you’re screwed. Oh, and he was 1st team All-Defense for a decade (winning defensive player of the year in in 1988). MJ also played every game he could. Look at all his 82 games played seasons (including his very last season after coming out of retirement).
On the flip side, LeBron would have trouble averaging 25 in the 80s/90s NBA. His post game blows and he’s not a great ball handler. Hand checks would cause him all sorts of trouble. Imagine how much more of a biitch he’d be getting grabbed every time he drives to the hole? How does he only shoot 50% from the floor and average more turnovers than MJ in this defense-free era? And yes- his ABSURD flopping certainly tarnished his legacy. Truly embarrassing. And lastly- what’s with missing so many games in the Lakers era? The fans want to see the stars, right?
It’s really not a difficult argument. Most NBA’rs (past and present) agree: if you need to win a game, you go with MJ all day long. Better scorer, better ball handler, better defense, and better in the clutch. NEVER losing on the biggest stage vs losing 60% of the time on the biggest stage. What are we even talking about here?
And honestly, the longer LeBron has played, the more THAT has become his legacy: the guy that was very good that played for a long time. (…but not the GOAT.)”
Meh.
The hand checking argument would work for someone like Curry. Lebron? Not so much. Wouldn't affect his game.
Post-up comments. Nah. That's an argument from 2011. Lebron's post up game has improved tremendously since then, Plus, game has changed. Post-up is used more of a passing opportunity today and more of a scoring out of the post in the 80s-00s. Lebron excels at passing out of the double team when he posts up (creating 4-3 advantage) and forcing 1-1. Not sure why you're fixated on post-up when it's 2026. It's like harping on C/PF - hell, even G - not taking 3's in the 80s. It's a different game - different strategies.
Game has changed. Jordan was one of, if not the most athletic players in his era. In today's game, he would face multiple players on each team that are equal or better athletes. (Sorry, Craig Ehlo). Everyone has multiple, supremely athletic 6'7"-6'10" wings that would give Jordan fits. That's why it's difficult to compare eras. Athleticism keeps improving. Great athletes in one era become average athletes 20 years later. Lebron will likely look like an average athlete in 20 years.
Again, your hand checks argument is absurd. Not sure why you use that as the crux of your argument. Lebron is a 6'9" 280lb SF/SG. Guys in the 80s-90s were a lot smaller and weaker. With James' athleticism, strength and size, there is no one in the 80s-90s that could match up with him. Karl Malone averaged 25. You'd have to be an idiot to think that a faster, stronger, more athletic, more skilled Karl Malone with 20lbs more muscle wouldn't average 25 points. He would dominate.
Your argument, although entertaining, was not very convincing. Full of poor takes and fantasy. Do better.
Imagine excelling in an intentionally-no defense era, and calling yourself the GOAT. LOL- GTFOH!!
Anyone going to dispute any of the FACTS here? This was too easy.
”Not sure how old everyone is on this thread, but the elimination of the ‘hand check’ in the NBA in 2004-05 made this argument even possible. It was a terrible decision by the NBA; turned the game into a defense-less spectacle of constant three-pointers and unchallenged dunks.
Jordan is BY FAR a better one-on-one and post-up player than LeBron. Go watch the highlight compilations. Jordan’s highlights are him doing incredibly acrobatic moves WHILE BEING HAND CHECKED and fouled. His post-up game was incredible. There was virtually nothing a defender could do to stop him from getting a shot off.
LeBron benefitted immensely from the defense not being allowed to hand check. His post up game is weak as hell WITHOUT HAND CHECKS. Go watch the highlights- his moves are slow and clunky; he would’ve been stopped with hand checks most of the time.
As other NBA legends and commentators have said, Jordan would average 40-50 points per game in today’s NBA. Not being allowed to touch him with your hands?? Are you kidding me?? He shot 50% lifetime with hand checks! He created his own shots, in traffic / in the post. Plus he was incredible in the clutch and shot 84% from the line, so at the end of games against him, you’re screwed. Oh, and he was 1st team All-Defense for a decade (winning defensive player of the year in in 1988). MJ also played every game he could. Look at all his 82 games played seasons (including his very last season after coming out of retirement).
On the flip side, LeBron would have trouble averaging 25 in the 80s/90s NBA. His post game blows and he’s not a great ball handler. Hand checks would cause him all sorts of trouble. Imagine how much more of a biitch he’d be getting grabbed every time he drives to the hole? How does he only shoot 50% from the floor and average more turnovers than MJ in this defense-free era? And yes- his ABSURD flopping certainly tarnished his legacy. Truly embarrassing. And lastly- what’s with missing so many games in the Lakers era? The fans want to see the stars, right?
It’s really not a difficult argument. Most NBA’rs (past and present) agree: if you need to win a game, you go with MJ all day long. Better scorer, better ball handler, better defense, and better in the clutch. NEVER losing on the biggest stage vs losing 60% of the time on the biggest stage. What are we even talking about here?
And honestly, the longer LeBron has played, the more THAT has become his legacy: the guy that was very good that played for a long time. (…but not the GOAT.)”
Meh.
The hand checking argument would work for someone like Curry. Lebron? Not so much. Wouldn't affect his game.
Post-up comments. Nah. That's an argument from 2011. Lebron's post up game has improved tremendously since then, Plus, game has changed. Post-up is used more of a passing opportunity today and more of a scoring out of the post in the 80s-00s. Lebron excels at passing out of the double team when he posts up (creating 4-3 advantage) and forcing 1-1. Not sure why you're fixated on post-up when it's 2026. It's like harping on C/PF - hell, even G - not taking 3's in the 80s. It's a different game - different strategies.
Game has changed. Jordan was one of, if not the most athletic players in his era. In today's game, he would face multiple players on each team that are equal or better athletes. (Sorry, Craig Ehlo). Everyone has multiple, supremely athletic 6'7"-6'10" wings that would give Jordan fits. That's why it's difficult to compare eras. Athleticism keeps improving. Great athletes in one era become average athletes 20 years later. Lebron will likely look like an average athlete in 20 years.
Again, your hand checks argument is absurd. Not sure why you use that as the crux of your argument. Lebron is a 6'9" 280lb SF/SG. Guys in the 80s-90s were a lot smaller and weaker. With James' athleticism, strength and size, there is no one in the 80s-90s that could match up with him. Karl Malone averaged 25. You'd have to be an idiot to think that a faster, stronger, more athletic, more skilled Karl Malone with 20lbs more muscle wouldn't average 25 points. He would dominate.
Your argument, although entertaining, was not very convincing. Full of poor takes and fantasy. Do better.
LOL- starting a post with “meh” typically means it’s going to be followed up with opinion-driven blather with no supporting facts. And you did not disappoint. My post was full of FACTS. Watch the three videos I posted. A plethora of stats that ALL point toward MJ being superior to LeBron.
Every single set of stats PROVE Jordan is the GOAT. Again- we’re currently in an era deliberately set up by the NBA to increase offensive stats… AND LEBRON STILL DOESN’T STACK UP!!
There are a ton of athletic guys in today’s game, sure- but they aren’t allowed to play defense! So as multiple NBA vets have stated, “MJ would average 40-50 per game.” (I’m sure you know more than them though.) Hard to dispute this, given how “the game has changed” in favor of the offense.
Since you can’t bring any stats to the debate that even remotely suggest LeBron is better, I encourage everyone to simply watch highlight compilations. As with all clips of this era, the defense is non-existent. Watch the defenders. It’s a complete joke. LeBron’s hardly-contested moves are predictable, clunky, and usually involve a travel or carry. Sloppy footwork. MJ’s footwork and acrobatics in the air were a work of art… which is a big part of why his highlights are more impressive. Though MJ’s smaller size and 46-48” vertical leap (also greater than LeBron’s 40-44”) help as well. 6’6” MJ dunking directly over Ewing, Mourning, Olajuwon, Motumbo, etc. that were actually trying to block the shots provide a different effect than 6’9” LeBron dunking on a guy with his arms down. LOL
Still undisputed (obvi): The stats and facts tell the story. Better scorer, better ball handler, better defender, better in the clutch, and NEVER LOST on the biggest stage of them all. The DEFINITION of “GOAT.”
He will never be the GOAT because that title belongs to Wilt Chamberlain. No one could score and rebound like Wilt, not even close.
Wilt is getting aged out of this debate... but if the guy could have shot free throws... I think even the younger people couldn't ignore is stats.
Wilt's biggest problem was that he rarely had a great surrounding cast. At the end of his career the Lakers provided that. But prior to the Lakers, the Sixers had some talent but the Celtics were all superstar types. The Celtics were truly in the league of their own.
It’s sad that people don’t know their history, and of Wilt’s accomplishments. He was like playing a video game with the cheat codes.
I want to hear more about this hand-checking the 1980s/90s point guards, shooting guards and small forwards would do to stop LeBron. That has to be the worst take among many bad takes.
I want to hear more about this hand-checking the 1980s/90s point guards, shooting guards and small forwards would do to stop LeBron. That has to be the worst take among many bad takes.