The relevance is that Jakob at 19 years of age showed huge future capacity in that race by towing the chase pack all the way. Championship? -A race isn’t more important or relevant or an impressive performance just because people choose to mark it as such in advance.
Champs can be brilliant, but also a real downer, depending on weather (almost all Jakob’s 5000 meters ruined by hot conditions and bad pace, and him running “in dominant” because of doubling or being sick) -most distance champs have been a farce with OG 2024 as a low point, with a low quality field, and the best guys in the field far from peak shape. Thank God Jakob got his real redemption in the 3000m some days later (but sad that Kejelcha once again was broken by the unfair hot conditions in Silesia).
relevance would be a performance in a Championship level race which has been the topic of discussion
That’s nonsense, for him and everyone else at his level, winning is everything. When he runs at a WC or the Olympics, anything less than a win is going home devastated. He’ll run whatever strategy he thinks will give him his best chance of a win and he’ll leave chasing PRs for DL meets.
I don’t think you get sports or understand the pressure Ingebrigtsen is under at championships. The losses to Wightman and Kerr were crushing defeats for him, and in Paris, he thought the only way to win was from the front. If he thought he could win like Centro did, he would have used that strategy instead.
If he’s healthy, but probably not competitive, he would be an outlier if he chose not to run. Can you name a runner that has done that? Kipchoge was pretty messed up before the Olympics last year but still gave it a shot.
You haven’t paid attention to the Jakob interviews -it’s really important to him how he wins, Therefore he takes chances, e.g in the WC 5000m 2022 where he front ran the last 1k in the wind, but also the very difficult front running in Paris 1500m.
And sometimes it’s not important to win for him -in 2020 against Kiplimo (3000m) he exposed him self for losing by passing the Ugandan too early, because time clearly was his priority.
so look pretty and lose over a win?
not exactly mamba mentality
this is why Kerr has subtly implied he’s soft because he’s trying to get him to overcompensate
when youre going for championships and medals there’s the thing itself and the games inside the games
It's nonsense to say that he cannot kick. The reality is rather that he rarely runs his races that way, instead wanting them to be fitness contests where he front-runs a great deal and runs fairly close to his threshold. No one is a big kicker when running a race that way. Hocker, Laros, Kerr or you-name-them cannot unleash their mythical kicks when running that way either. We've seen just that over and over. When those guys are taken past their threshold at any given time, suddenly the kick is gone. Kicking presupposes that you have some reserve left at the end.
In those various races where Ingebrigtsen has chosen/managed to save some reserve left for the finish, he has shown numerous times that has an entirely serviceable and competitive kick, and in many of those instances he will indeed outkick his rivals if he has more reserve at the end than they do. But that's rarely how he runs a big race.
At the same time, it's nonsense to say that he has the best kick of them all. He has certainly done nothing to suggest that he can post a low low 12-second last 100m the way Reynold and a few others have in slower races. But in a moderate-to-fast race where he hasn't expended more energy than his competitors? Sure, he can clearly kick just fine.
I mostly agree.
The people who are negative on Jakob underestimate his kick.
In the Budapest 2023 semifinal he ran the last 100m in 12.47, the last 200m in 25.44, the last 300m in 38.34 and last 400m in AROUND 51.63. I write AROUND because according to Worldathletics race analysis he ran 50.63 last 400m, including 12.29 from 1100m to 1200m but I think that 100m is about 1 sec wrong: he didn´t take over 1 sec on Kerr at this stage of the race AND he wasn´t 2 seconds behind Kerr at the Bell as the race analysis suggest but only around 1 sec ( I try to live up to my username).
But it is still a very fast finish which only few other top runners can match (even though the finishing time was only high 3:34).
AND it was only a semifinal, and he ran most of the last lap in lane 2 and was gesturing to the crowd (which is bad sportsmanships in my opinion).
It's nonsense to say that he cannot kick. The reality is rather that he rarely runs his races that way, instead wanting them to be fitness contests where he front-runs a great deal and runs fairly close to his threshold. No one is a big kicker when running a race that way. Hocker, Laros, Kerr or you-name-them cannot unleash their mythical kicks when running that way either. We've seen just that over and over. When those guys are taken past their threshold at any given time, suddenly the kick is gone. Kicking presupposes that you have some reserve left at the end.
In those various races where Ingebrigtsen has chosen/managed to save some reserve left for the finish, he has shown numerous times that has an entirely serviceable and competitive kick, and in many of those instances he will indeed outkick his rivals if he has more reserve at the end than they do. But that's rarely how he runs a big race.
At the same time, it's nonsense to say that he has the best kick of them all. He has certainly done nothing to suggest that he can post a low low 12-second last 100m the way Reynold and a few others have in slower races. But in a moderate-to-fast race where he hasn't expended more energy than his competitors? Sure, he can clearly kick just fine.
I mostly agree.
The people who are negative on Jakob underestimate his kick.
In the Budapest 2023 semifinal he ran the last 100m in 12.47, the last 200m in 25.44, the last 300m in 38.34 and last 400m in AROUND 51.63. I write AROUND because according to Worldathletics race analysis he ran 50.63 last 400m, including 12.29 from 1100m to 1200m but I think that 100m is about 1 sec wrong: he didn´t take over 1 sec on Kerr at this stage of the race AND he wasn´t 2 seconds behind Kerr at the Bell as the race analysis suggest but only around 1 sec ( I try to live up to my username).
But it is still a very fast finish which only few other top runners can match (even though the finishing time was only high 3:34).
AND it was only a semifinal, and he ran most of the last lap in lane 2 and was gesturing to the crowd (which is bad sportsmanships in my opinion).
It's nonsense to say that he cannot kick. The reality is rather that he rarely runs his races that way, instead wanting them to be fitness contests where he front-runs a great deal and runs fairly close to his threshold. No one is a big kicker when running a race that way. Hocker, Laros, Kerr or you-name-them cannot unleash their mythical kicks when running that way either. We've seen just that over and over. When those guys are taken past their threshold at any given time, suddenly the kick is gone. Kicking presupposes that you have some reserve left at the end.
In those various races where Ingebrigtsen has chosen/managed to save some reserve left for the finish, he has shown numerous times that has an entirely serviceable and competitive kick, and in many of those instances he will indeed outkick his rivals if he has more reserve at the end than they do. But that's rarely how he runs a big race.
At the same time, it's nonsense to say that he has the best kick of them all. He has certainly done nothing to suggest that he can post a low low 12-second last 100m the way Reynold and a few others have in slower races. But in a moderate-to-fast race where he hasn't expended more energy than his competitors? Sure, he can clearly kick just fine.
“Both of you are entirely wrong, naturally.” -That would include me, but since you go on reasoning exactly the same way as I did, and not criticising anything I wrote, your opening sentence seems weird…
The only thing I can speculate in is this; I wrote: “He’s the best kicker there is (in a reasonable fast race).” But you are saying the exact same thing, only with a little different wording! So I have to ask: Didn’t you read what I put in brackets here?
What is this Hockermania all about? Yes, yes, he ran a marvelous 1500 in Paris. This year 3:30.37. His third best ever. And that's it. And suddenly he is going to run exeptionally well again? Why? The three kenyans in the WC better than him this year, three norwegians, two americans, two dutch. Laros is the man to beat. And Hocker is not the man to do it. But perhaps Kerr or Ingebrigtsen.
Good luck with that. Underestimating Hocker based on limited regular season results ends poorly. Even at Pre which wasn’t his best he beat most of the guys you’re thinking are better.
A classical misunderstanding. I am not thinking some of the guys are better. I am just stating a fact. So are you, regarding the mile. But some are hyping him, without much evidence. My estimation, which might be wrong, is that his potential to win against Laros and Kerr and Ingebrigtsen is not the greatest this year. But you never know, you know. He is in the same position as a lot of other runners: J. Koech, P. Koech, Habz, Nordas, the two Cheruiyots, E. Strand etc. And what about the two yougsters Moe Berg and Myers. And even Jose Carlos Pinto. Some of these guys will not even reach the final. But Hockermania???
For one, Laros just closed a 3:29 race with a 12.5 last 100. Unless I have missed something (or you somehow don't find 3:29 "reasonably fast"), I don't think Jakob has ever posted a finish quite at that level in an equivalent race. I don't think he quite matches the numbers of Hocker's best finishes either. I do, however, think that his kick is probably quite comparable to Kerr's and find it odd that people label one of them as a man with no kick and the other a mythical finisher. The difference between their kicks is one of tactics, not one of ability – Kerr actually sits and kicks, something Ingebrigtsen rarely does to the same extent. But has he shown multiple times that he has a competitive kick, even if not quite on the same level as the few very fastest finishers.
The people who are negative on Jakob underestimate his kick.
In the Budapest 2023 semifinal he ran the last 100m in 12.47, the last 200m in 25.44, the last 300m in 38.34 and last 400m in AROUND 51.63. I write AROUND because according to Worldathletics race analysis he ran 50.63 last 400m, including 12.29 from 1100m to 1200m but I think that 100m is about 1 sec wrong: he didn´t take over 1 sec on Kerr at this stage of the race AND he wasn´t 2 seconds behind Kerr at the Bell as the race analysis suggest but only around 1 sec ( I try to live up to my username).
But it is still a very fast finish which only few other top runners can match (even though the finishing time was only high 3:34).
AND it was only a semifinal, and he ran most of the last lap in lane 2 and was gesturing to the crowd (which is bad sportsmanships in my opinion).
The splits were all messed up but yes it was impressive. His kick is good, and I agree with a poster who likened it to Kerr’s. But this is of course mooted if he leads at a hard pace. Nobody has a good kick if they do that.
A classical misunderstanding. I am not thinking some of the guys are better. I am just stating a fact. So are you, regarding the mile. But some are hyping him, without much evidence. My estimation, which might be wrong, is that his potential to win against Laros and Kerr and Ingebrigtsen is not the greatest this year. But you never know, you know. He is in the same position as a lot of other runners: J. Koech, P. Koech, Habz, Nordas, the two Cheruiyots, E. Strand etc. And what about the two yougsters Moe Berg and Myers. And even Jose Carlos Pinto. Some of these guys will not even reach the final. But Hockermania???
I think you are just showing some bias. Pinto I mean come on. If Gjert pulls that one it’d be something. Hocker has a 3:27.6 PB and has run 7:23 for 3K in his last mini-peak. I think you are a little too lost in seasonal bests, which are reliant on race selection and an athletes goals.
This post was edited 15 seconds after it was posted.
It's nonsense to say that he cannot kick. The reality is rather that he rarely runs his races that way, instead wanting them to be fitness contests where he front-runs a great deal and runs fairly close to his threshold. No one is a big kicker when running a race that way. Hocker, Laros, Kerr or you-name-them cannot unleash their mythical kicks when running that way either. We've seen just that over and over. When those guys are taken past their threshold at any given time, suddenly the kick is gone. Kicking presupposes that you have some reserve left at the end.
In those various races where Ingebrigtsen has chosen/managed to save some reserve left for the finish, he has shown numerous times that has an entirely serviceable and competitive kick, and in many of those instances he will indeed outkick his rivals if he has more reserve at the end than they do. But that's rarely how he runs a big race.
At the same time, it's nonsense to say that he has the best kick of them all. He has certainly done nothing to suggest that he can post a low low 12-second last 100m the way Reynold and a few others have in slower races. But in a moderate-to-fast race where he hasn't expended more energy than his competitors? Sure, he can clearly kick just fine.
I mostly agree.
The people who are negative on Jakob underestimate his kick.
In the Budapest 2023 semifinal he ran the last 100m in 12.47, the last 200m in 25.44, the last 300m in 38.34 and last 400m in AROUND 51.63. I write AROUND because according to Worldathletics race analysis he ran 50.63 last 400m, including 12.29 from 1100m to 1200m but I think that 100m is about 1 sec wrong: he didn´t take over 1 sec on Kerr at this stage of the race AND he wasn´t 2 seconds behind Kerr at the Bell as the race analysis suggest but only around 1 sec ( I try to live up to my username).
But it is still a very fast finish which only few other top runners can match (even though the finishing time was only high 3:34).
AND it was only a semifinal, and he ran most of the last lap in lane 2 and was gesturing to the crowd (which is bad sportsmanships in my opinion).
ok case in point
he was dead last at the bell and ran a 51 last lap to win the heat
Kerr was in that semi final with him.
In retrospect, was that wise?
we are also talking about a heat won in 3:35
Looking at who should be the favorite:
Here's Laros' last 3 races:
3:45.94 Mile Eugene, 53.4 last lap (last 100 under 13.0)
3:30:58 1500m Brussels, 53.4 last lap (last 100 under 13.0)
3:29.30 1500 Zurich, 53.4 last lap (last 100 under 13.0)
Last two races looked like he easily had more in the tank in the last 150m
For one, Laros just closed a 3:29 race with a 12.5 last 100. Unless I have missed something (or you somehow don't find 3:29 "reasonably fast"), I don't think Jakob has ever posted a finish quite at that level in an equivalent race. I don't think he quite matches the numbers of Hocker's best finishes either. I do, however, think that his kick is probably quite comparable to Kerr's and find it odd that people label one of them as a man with no kick and the other a mythical finisher. The difference between their kicks is one of tactics, not one of ability – Kerr actually sits and kicks, something Ingebrigtsen rarely does to the same extent. But has he shown multiple times that he has a competitive kick, even if not quite on the same level as the few very fastest finishers.
Yes I think a 3.26.73 guy (who possibly has been in 3.25 high shape with the same drafting as his competitors) can do 12.5 last 100. But we don’t know for sure if he never faces the exact same situation Laros had in his race…
For one, Laros just closed a 3:29 race with a 12.5 last 100. Unless I have missed something (or you somehow don't find 3:29 "reasonably fast"), I don't think Jakob has ever posted a finish quite at that level in an equivalent race. I don't think he quite matches the numbers of Hocker's best finishes either. I do, however, think that his kick is probably quite comparable to Kerr's and find it odd that people label one of them as a man with no kick and the other a mythical finisher. The difference between their kicks is one of tactics, not one of ability – Kerr actually sits and kicks, something Ingebrigtsen rarely does to the same extent. But has he shown multiple times that he has a competitive kick, even if not quite on the same level as the few very fastest finishers.
There are not many opportunities for Jakob to run a sub 13 last 100 because almost every race he is pushing in the middle.
A classical misunderstanding. I am not thinking some of the guys are better. I am just stating a fact. So are you, regarding the mile. But some are hyping him, without much evidence. My estimation, which might be wrong, is that his potential to win against Laros and Kerr and Ingebrigtsen is not the greatest this year. But you never know, you know. He is in the same position as a lot of other runners: J. Koech, P. Koech, Habz, Nordas, the two Cheruiyots, E. Strand etc. And what about the two yougsters Moe Berg and Myers. And even Jose Carlos Pinto. Some of these guys will not even reach the final. But Hockermania???
I think you are just showing some bias. Pinto I mean come on. If Gjert pulls that one it’d be something. Hocker has a 3:27.6 PB and has run 7:23 for 3K in his last mini-peak. I think you are a little too lost in seasonal bests, which are reliant on race selection and an athletes goals.
That's what you think - twice. Pinto is progressing under training, better and better. His last 120 was impressive when he ran new PB at 800 in Pfungstadt 21 AUG : 1:45.12, down 1.39 sec. And when he won the Portugese Championships 5000 in 36 degrees C: 13:29, his first 5000 ever. His PB 3:31.94 from 19 Jul. He has won six 1500s in a row. Yes, Pinto will run in the finale and then we will see.
For one, Laros just closed a 3:29 race with a 12.5 last 100. Unless I have missed something (or you somehow don't find 3:29 "reasonably fast"), I don't think Jakob has ever posted a finish quite at that level in an equivalent race. I don't think he quite matches the numbers of Hocker's best finishes either. I do, however, think that his kick is probably quite comparable to Kerr's and find it odd that people label one of them as a man with no kick and the other a mythical finisher. The difference between their kicks is one of tactics, not one of ability – Kerr actually sits and kicks, something Ingebrigtsen rarely does to the same extent. But has he shown multiple times that he has a competitive kick, even if not quite on the same level as the few very fastest finishers.
Yes I think a 3.26.73 guy (who possibly has been in 3.25 high shape with the same drafting as his competitors) can do 12.5 last 100. But we don’t know for sure if he never faces the exact same situation Laros had in his race…
“possibly “ and “we don’t know for sure”
what do you know?
like results and splits and logic
a 3:26 guy isnt closing in 12.5 when he ran a positive split 2:47 @ 1200
He’s got nothing to lose this year. Nobody expects him to win the 1500. He should jog the rounds like he always does and kick the last 600. Then in the final, he should sit in 2nd place and dare whoever is leading to take the pace. Look at El G in 2004 for an example. If he’s feeling good enough, lead the last 700-800 but not a step before then. He must be able to ratchet down the pace to pull that off though. It’ll take the kick out of the kickers and then positioning in the last 100m will be paramount (assuming he is still accelerating the last 100m). He doesn’t need to close in 12.5 if the previous 100s were all slightly faster than the rest (i.e. 13.0, 13.3, 13.5, 13.7 - 53.5 last lap is fast enough as long as the previous 400 was a 55 and he closes in 1;48).
the 5K should be the usual strategy. Anyone suggesting the Ethiopians will push the pace is foolish. They have never done it (other than prime Bekele) and they won’t do it in hot and humid Tokyo. Jingy will sit and wait until the last 400-600. I think he’s the favorite and the rounds of the 1500 will actually help him get ready for the 5K (schedule is kind in that the 5K semi is 2 days after the 1500m final).
will be very interesting. Can’t wait to see how it all unfolds.
Jakob doesn’t want to win at all cost. -It’s very important for him not to be disgusted by himself.
Sitting on somebody in the 5000m and bursting the last lap is against Jakob’s anti parasitic view. -He can only do that if he’s sick, or if the guys he sits on haven’t doubled/or been injured like him…
The 1500m: If Jakob wanted to win at all cost he (and the Norwegian Federation) could force Håkon Moe Berg to be a pacer in the final. But that will of course not happen -Jakob wouldn’t allow it. And Moe Berg may be a medal contender in his own right…
He doesn't seem to have a problem winning with sit and kick in the 5k. Isn't that "winning at all cost" by your argument? BTW, it's completely ridiculous to suggest he has won those titles when he was sick.
For one, Laros just closed a 3:29 race with a 12.5 last 100. Unless I have missed something (or you somehow don't find 3:29 "reasonably fast"), I don't think Jakob has ever posted a finish quite at that level in an equivalent race. I don't think he quite matches the numbers of Hocker's best finishes either. I do, however, think that his kick is probably quite comparable to Kerr's and find it odd that people label one of them as a man with no kick and the other a mythical finisher. The difference between their kicks is one of tactics, not one of ability – Kerr actually sits and kicks, something Ingebrigtsen rarely does to the same extent. But has he shown multiple times that he has a competitive kick, even if not quite on the same level as the few very fastest finishers.
I can't believe it is still being argued here that Ingebrigtsen has a kick that matches the best in the event when he has been outkicked in EVERY global 1500 final since 2021.
Jakob doesn’t want to win at all cost. -It’s very important for him not to be disgusted by himself.
Sitting on somebody in the 5000m and bursting the last lap is against Jakob’s anti parasitic view. -He can only do that if he’s sick, or if the guys he sits on haven’t doubled/or been injured like him…
The 1500m: If Jakob wanted to win at all cost he (and the Norwegian Federation) could force Håkon Moe Berg to be a pacer in the final. But that will of course not happen -Jakob wouldn’t allow it. And Moe Berg may be a medal contender in his own right…
He doesn't seem to have a problem winning with sit and kick in the 5k. Isn't that "winning at all cost" by your argument? BTW, it's completely ridiculous to suggest he has won those titles when he was sick.
just saw Norwegian Fed said he and Nordas are running both 1500/5000
To your original point, exactly, this silly winning elegantly argument seemingly applies to one event only
That's what you think - twice. Pinto is progressing under training, better and better. His last 120 was impressive when he ran new PB at 800 in Pfungstadt 21 AUG : 1:45.12, down 1.39 sec. And when he won the Portugese Championships 5000 in 36 degrees C: 13:29, his first 5000 ever. His PB 3:31.94 from 19 Jul. He has won six 1500s in a row. Yes, Pinto will run in the finale and then we will see.
It's a great prediction, and I'll give you credit if it happens. Gjert taking a 28-year-old complete nobody to world finalist would be something. Like the Katir story except crazier, and hopefully not including doping.