How on earth are HSers running this fast?

As someone who ran pretty fast in 8th grade last year (9:31 3k, 4:42 mile), I was running 40 miles per week in middle school, running threshold sessions, using Dragonflys, fireflys/normatecs/other recovery tools, and lifting/biking/ellipitcalling/swimming for hours per week. In the weeks leading up to my 9:31 and 4:42, I would run 35MPW w/ 2 threshold sessions and at least 3 hours cross trianing.

Great thread… thanks

Maybe someone’s already made this point, since I’m not to the end of the thread yet, but it’s obviously both shoes and training (and all the factors else said, other than Armstrong). The early specialization of more and better athletes, using better training, has caused ridiculous times. And the shoes have been crucial to that better training. Hedengren, for example, has been able to stack so much consistent training from such a young age because (1) of whatever genetic and lifestyle boost she gets from her parents, (2) the culture and club training in Provo, and (3) shoes. Not mutually exclusive.

I do think the shoes’ role has been much bigger in the consistent, high-level training the superfoams allow than in whatever they shave off on race day. The point about the spikes specifically—“make them race in old flats” or whatever—has less to do with it. The spikes alone don’t account for 30 seconds in a 5000, but the use of shoes as a training tool nationwide is revolutionary. Trying to do the same volume of threshold and speedwork in old-fashioned trainers, week after week, month after month, and year after year would break kids down before they hit the level they’re getting to these days. As would wearing new shoes to blast short reps and run until you puke every week. The shoes and training work together.

And yeah, I see no reason Webb couldn’t have given 3:50 a scare if he had the same supershoe access these kids do. Maybe, maybe not. But his 3:53 at Pre was good for 5th place, which is what Wightman got last year—in 3:47 (top 9 under 3:50, with Cam Myers 11th in 3:50.15 at age 17). Fifth at Pre in 2023 was 3:48, with the top 11 under 3:50. Certainly can’t put it past Webb to have been top 10 and right there with Myers.

i appreciate posts like this very much. we need more people seeing these clownish modern times with clear eyes. very few actual records are being broken today. instead, we have elites in cheater shoes bouncing 2-5 seconds faster in the mile, 5-10 seconds faster in the 2 mile, 10-20 seconds faster in the 5k, 20-50 seconds faster in the 10k, and 3-6 minutes faster in the marathon. yes, webb's 3:53 is probably a 3:48 or so with the cheater shoes. but we also need to acknowledge that wightman's 3:47 is about a 3:52 withOUT the cheater shoes. korir's time at boston was awesome, but it was probably more like a 2:06 or 2:07 effort without the cheaters. grant fischer and cole hocker probably ran about 7:27 or 7:28 (still amazing!) this winter, but not 7:22 - and in my opinion, it waters down the achievement and historical significance of a 7:27 to pretend it was 7:22.

Thats only two athletes you mentioned. Yay for you....... And if you bothered to actually read what i typed,i said MOST, not ALL. Jakob ingebritsen,usain bolt and tirunesh dibaba also went on to great things,but the reality is,most dont.I also said training like adults,when they are children will probably come back to bite many of them later on,regardless of how successful they are as adults .

Ive always found it strange that only russians,belorussians,indians,turks and a few others ever get caught,plus expendable athletes, but rarely big name athletes. Its all about the money.

Original races were barefoot. So we need to put an asterisk next to anyone wearing shoes right?

people just need to grow up and move on. Things change and that’s ok.

Answer is simple: Parents and Coaches are more involved in training lifecycle earlier in their lives. This has happened with Jane, the Youngs, and the Sahlmans for instance.

Just to give an example, Jane's younger sister, has been training/racing since Elementary school. Then, in middle school, she raced against lower-level HS kids at highschool meets before graduating to top-level HS kids in Utah (As a 7th grader!). It's all a gradual progression that most kids are not afforded (unless you are in John Hedegren's new youth program).

Don't let the stats fool you though, there are still PLENTY of kids who are just your norm 4:30 milers who train and live like all 4:30 milers ever did. There are still 5:00 milers who train and live like all 5:00 milers ever did.

Finally some common sense, all sports evolve with better equipment.

The training kids get these days is incredible. My son is 13. He lives and breathes athletics. Follows his favourite runners on YouTube. Trains 4/5 times a week (all very nicely balanced). It’s simply exposure and expectation.

When I was his age, running was something you did if you were uncoordinated and couldn’t catch a ball.

that is a nice schedule.

35 miles per week is plenty for now. i'd add in an off season phase concentration on power sprints and some repeat 600 m uphill ....

Maybe said before - I know it is only for the elite, but NIL money is a huge driver. You think Jane Hedengren won't be getting a NIL before college? She might already have one. Before you had to go pro or live as a broke college student for 4 years while trying to train at a high level.

"How on earth are HSers running this fast?"

I know. I'd expect these times at a location where the effect of gravity is much less, like the moon.

Mars Blackmon has been vindicated! It must be the shoes!

It’s definitely not the shoes. Show one study showing improvements middle distance events with supershoes. Correlation does not equal causation.

As usual these days, the thread started off good and then got derailed by a bunch of loserthink retards who will never figure it out.

Who cares if the shoes give a little bit of advantage over shoes designed 30 years ago? They are available for everyone. It is a factor, but only one of many. You would only care about that if you're butthurt that kids today are clowning on your 90s time. I'm happy to see kids making my times look wack.

Then you have the clown fretting about how kids are going to have shortened careers because of all this training they are doing at a young age. This might be the primary reason kids in the 90s sucked. Everyone was holding them back to try to prolong their career. What career? I was a 4:20 guy on 20 miles a week. I'm so glad someone held me back so I could get destroyed by well developed Kenyans in college. It would have been soooo awful if I had run 50 miles a week in high school, ran sub 4:10, had a scholarship pay for my entire college, and then I plataued early and had to move on with my life.

My child is running the maximum training that is sensible to try to get to a high enough level to get either a scholarship or invited walk-on status for a great school. She's not planning to run at all if she isn't making the team at the schools she is targeting for academic reasons. So why would you hold back? Outside of college running, my child would rather whoop ass in high school then be mid in high school and a never was in college.

I fully suspect we will see our elites have shorter careers, which is a good thing. Back in the 90s when the Kenyans were dominating us, 99% of their best guys showed up on the scene for a year or two and then disappeared. And we had guys a minute slower in the 10k who had a long "career".

I could go on and on. To summarize, kids have better knowledge, better equipment, better training, and better attitudes. It's not surprising they are more successful.

All runners are faster today that 40 years ago. Track surfaces at first. Now shoes.

I don't really place nutrition or training methods high on the list.

Looking back at training threshold work was always a component as well as endurance build up and sharpening for me. I don't think I would have looked to change much.

My 4:35 high school mile on cinders in crappy flats is more like a 4:20 today with new shoes and state of the art tracks.

I honestly do not think todays runners are any better.

Yes, it was a nice schedule. My high school program is good as well, and I ran in the 16:40s in the fall for 5k. Not as fast as I wanted, but missed a couple races due to hip pain. Turns out that hip pain was a torn labrum and a hip impingement! Got hip surgery two weeks ago, not really my fault just born with an extra big femur. There goes the spring, but I have 3 more years to run 4:10/9:00/15:00!