Snell ran 48.0 in a time trial in Rome as part of his final prep for the 800m.
His fastest 200 was 22.3 and he didn't think he could do much better than 48 over the 400. Not as fast as either Coe or Ovett over those distances but faster than Cram, who ran 1:42.8 on modern tracks.
Does anyone know where to get a reprint copy of this? I have been looking for this and a few other classic running books but it seems everything is a fairly expensive original off of Amazon. This and a few Jim Ryun books have been on my wish list for a while but I am holding out that there exist some cheaper paperback copies rather than nearly $100 originals used on Amazon. I've even tried scouring some vintage book stores in my area but their running selection is disappointingly sparse.
I think you can get the book for a fair price but the shipping is high (New Zealand).
The kindle version is quite good, too. Not much for a collection, of course, but it’s a good read—found it after reading the first couple pages of this thread and am just getting to the bit about Tokyo.
Doping was unknown in md and distance running then. There were no drugs known then to increase endurance. Blood doping didn't appear till the '70's. The '50's and early '60's were still the era of amateur sport. Little more than a glorified hobby. It was, in many ways, a more naive era. I remember it. I grew up in it.
There is no reason to believe Snell doped but amphetamines and even testosterone were used in sport since the 50’s. They also weren’t banned for almost twenty years and there was no test for it.
And these supposedly doped distance runners were hardly faster than African women runners today.
On a prominent shelf in my office is a pristine first edition, first printing copy of No Bugles No Drums. Signed on the title page by Peter Snell, Garth Gilmour, and Authur Lydiard, it is one of the foundations of my extensive collection books regarding the world of athletics. It has been a few years since I read that memoir but this morning, I thumbed through its pages.
Whilst I do not wish to engage in the debate between Armstronglivs and uviichy, I will share this quote a from that tome. “In the 1500, I finished fifth, hit now by the effects on my legs of the hard San Diego track.” (Snell and Gilmour, 219). These few words were written about the June 1965 race in Helsinki during his final tour and competitive season. In the paragraph he also described the fatiguing effects of travel and being a “heavily muscled athlete” and his desire to scratch the next race in Dublin. A few pages over he described having no kick or enthusiasm with a time of about 3:44 in finishing third behind Jim Grelle in a 1500m race in Berlin which occurred later that month.
The last chapter of No Bugles No Drums is a reflection on the extent that athletics influenced Snell’s life. He states, “For seven years, nothing was attempted before its possible effects on my athletic training had been considered. Generally, it would be right to say that if it did threaten to interfere with training, it probably wasn’t done.” (Snell and Gilmour, 231).
Snell, Peter, and Garth Gilmour. No Bugles No Drums. Minerva, 1965.
From the article "Racing Past" on Snell's final world tour.
"A final world tour was on the cards for 1965. He trained hard from January to the end of May. On June 4 in the USA, he won a Mile race in 3:56.8 against Odlozil, Grelle and Ryun: “ I’d never been made to run that hard up the straight,” he wrote later (209) This was the last international race that he won. He was beaten over 880 in Canada by Bill Crothers, and then by Jim Ryun in California. In Finland he was 5th in a 1,500, and in Dublin he was beaten by Whetton and Wiggs over a Mile. Odlozil beat him in Prague and Crothers (again) in Oslo. In his last race, a mile in Berlin, he was third behind Grelle and a local runner."
No one could use that tour as a summary of his career achievements. It was disastrous. He had never had losses such as these, to runners he had previously beaten. He had also fallen ill on the tour, suffering from gastroenteritis.
It was also the only time he raced the 1500 outside the Tokyo Olympics. He never raced it in his peak years from '60-'64, until the Olympics at the end of '64. The mile was his usual distance, together with the 880y or 800m.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
The late, great Peter Snell did run a few 1500's after Tokyo .. Admittedly not 100% health or fitness wise as you have mentioned before. June 30 1965 Helsinki (World Games) 1500m 5th place 3:43.7. behind Jim Grelle. John Davies was 3rd in 3:42.2. Prague July 9 1965 3rd behind Jurgen May 3:42.6 (Davies 4th) .... Then an interesting one 12th July 1965 2nd over 2000m behind Josef Odlozil 5:12.6 .. His last race on that tour 2nd to Crothers over 800m in Oslo July 15 ; 1:47.8
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Why are you so horribly hostile? Why do you feel the need to attack people you don't know? Even if he is wrong, he is doing the same as you do about Jakob. Maybe you are trash too.
It looks as though Snell had no time to do his 10 week aerobic base period before the 1965 season. Tokyo was in October and then the NZ summer track season right away.
Doping was unknown in md and distance running then. There were no drugs known then to increase endurance. Blood doping didn't appear till the '70's. The '50's and early '60's were still the era of amateur sport. Little more than a glorified hobby. It was, in many ways, a more naive era. I remember it. I grew up in it.
I wish your statement was true but unfortunately it is not. One of several examples Rudolph Harbig was known to have doped in the 1936 OG given by Gerschler who was afraid his nerves would fail him, There are unfortunately plenty of others.
Snell' s run was one of the truly great efforts in athletics.
Why are you so horribly hostile? Why do you feel the need to attack people you don't know? Even if he is wrong, he is doing the same as you do about Jakob. Maybe you are trash too.
For sure I'm not wrong.
Snell has lost many 1500m/Mile races. He lost races in any year from 1960 to 1965 apart from 1962. He lost at least once to any runner I have mentioned.
Why are you so horribly hostile? Why do you feel the need to attack people you don't know? Even if he is wrong, he is doing the same as you do about Jakob. Maybe you are trash too.
For sure I'm not wrong.
Snell has lost many 1500m/Mile races. He lost races in any year from 1960 to 1965 apart from 1962. He lost at least once to any runner I have mentioned.
He had also fallen ill on the tour, suffering from gastroenteritis.
Why do you believe that but when Jakob said he had COVID you said it was an excuse?
What one person says doesn't prove what another said. When Snell had gastro he finished last in a mile race in Dublin. He was booed up the straight. He went to the mic and apologised to the spectators, saying he had been trying his hardest but hadn't even been sure he was going to be able to compete but knew they had paid to see him. He received a standing ovation which upset him even more.
I don't recall Ingebrigtsen doing anything like that.
Why are you so horribly hostile? Why do you feel the need to attack people you don't know? Even if he is wrong, he is doing the same as you do about Jakob. Maybe you are trash too.
For sure I'm not wrong.
Snell has lost many 1500m/Mile races. He lost races in any year from 1960 to 1965 apart from 1962. He lost at least once to any runner I have mentioned.
You are wrong. He had never raced the 1500 before Tokyo. The races over that distance you say he lost were in the last two months of his career in his farewell tour mid-'65. The races he lost to those you listed above was in that final tour, when he also fell ill and completely lost form. They had never beaten him otherwise. In early '64 he lost a couple of local races to his compatriot John Davies, after recovering from injury. He wasn't fully fit. His training was impaired and he didn't think he was going to be able to successfully compete at Tokyo. His form was poor right up to when he arrived there. It was only a time-trial that persuaded him he was ready. Roger Moens was watching trackside and said to Peter he had to go for the double. This is the same Roger Moens who said for years after Tokyo that Snell was the greatest middle distance runner of the 20th century. No one has achieved the 800/1500 double since Snell.
In the years between '60-'64 Snell was completely dominant and regarded as virtually unbeatable. The last two months of his career is when he lost to a whole bunch of runners, including those he had owned. You could include the entire field in a mile race at Dublin, where he came last. But those two months were not representative of his talents or he wouldn't have been regarded as the great champion he was. As far as I can recall from his autobiography he didn't lose an international race in that period from '60-'64, and he always won the races that were regarded as a test of his standing, including championship finals. That makes him different from certain runners today.
Snell has lost many 1500m/Mile races. He lost races in any year from 1960 to 1965 apart from 1962. He lost at least once to any runner I have mentioned.
Doping was unknown in md and distance running then. There were no drugs known then to increase endurance. Blood doping didn't appear till the '70's. The '50's and early '60's were still the era of amateur sport. Little more than a glorified hobby. It was, in many ways, a more naive era. I remember it. I grew up in it.
I wish your statement was true but unfortunately it is not. One of several examples Rudolph Harbig was known to have doped in the 1936 OG given by Gerschler who was afraid his nerves would fail him, There are unfortunately plenty of others.
Snell' s run was one of the truly great efforts in athletics.
What were the drugs that aided md and distance runners in that era? If they were doping surely they would be faster than schoolboys and women today?
Snell has lost many 1500m/Mile races. He lost races in any year from 1960 to 1965 apart from 1962. He lost at least once to any runner I have mentioned.
You are wrong. He had never raced the 1500 before Tokyo. The races over that distance you say he lost were in the last two months of his career in his farewell tour mid-'65. The races he lost to those you listed above was in that final tour, when he also fell ill and completely lost form. They had never beaten him otherwise. In early '64 he lost a couple of local races to his compatriot John Davies, after recovering from injury. He wasn't fully fit. His training was impaired and he didn't think he was going to be able to successfully compete at Tokyo. His form was poor right up to when he arrived there. It was only a time-trial that persuaded him he was ready. Roger Moens was watching trackside and said to Peter he had to go for the double. This is the same Roger Moens who said for years after Tokyo that Snell was the greatest middle distance runner of the 20th century. No one has achieved the 800/1500 double since Snell.
In the years between '60-'64 Snell was completely dominant and regarded as virtually unbeatable. The last two months of his career is when he lost to a whole bunch of runners, including those he had owned. You could include the entire field in a mile race at Dublin, where he came last. But those two months were not representative of his talents or he wouldn't have been regarded as the great champion he was. As far as I can recall from his autobiography he didn't lose an international race in that period from '60-'64, and he always won the races that were regarded as a test of his standing, including championship finals. That makes him different from certain runners today.
Definitely the greatest middle distance runner of all time if we only talk about 800-Mile. Not a debate. Coe wasn’t as good as him.
Coe is clearly the greatest middle distance runner of all time for me. His record at the big championships is relatively weak (despite two Olympic golds), but the level of fitness which he has had in 1981 (and also in 1979/80) is still unique.
Still number 8 well over 4 decades after his prime in the 800m (and number 2 in the 1000m) as well as his unique finishing capabilities makes it a clear choice for me.
And he was much longer at or near the top than Snell.
Coe was a professional; Snell was an amateur. He needed to make a living outside the sport and he said after Tokyo he had achieved everything he had wanted to achieve in the sport. Completely different eras.
Which impact do you think my age has to the answer of the question if Peter Snell has lost several 1500m/Mile races during 1960-1964 (and 1965) (the answer: yes)?
Besides some losses to 2nd tier New Zealanders, he has lost to Elliott, Sullivan, Pirie, Tabori, Burleson, Wiggs, Shillington, (Jin) Grelle, Davies, Weisiger, (Jin?) Ryun, Odlozil, Whetton, Baran, Simpson, Tümmler, May and some more.
Some info: your next step, insults, will also not change this fact.
I understand that it must be hard for you to realize that one of your gods in fact was human. But unfortunately - we can't change this. So sad.
Peter Snell had never raced over 1500 meters before the 1964 Olympics.
He did race over 1500 meters in 1965 three times, as part of his farewell tour.