Serious question on who supports which side in Trump v. Zelenskyy

rekrunner wrote:

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

The left framed it as if Trump and Vance invited him to the Oval Office under false pretenses and then ambushed him.

Trump is smarter than the Democrats and he's got common sense so he understands how the world works.

The ONLY way you can guarantee that "a man who never respects negotiated agreements" is through violence or a threat of violence that is actually real. Trump understands that Europe cannot fight. They gutted their militaries and their industrial capacity. Trump knows "NATO" just means "the Unites States military" and he's not going to sign the US military up for a European war that EUROPE is not even willing to fight in.

You people are so mentally diseased with TDS that you can't understand anything beyond how much you hate the scary orange man.

He's 100% right on Ukraine.

Trump is on the wrong side of Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Trump's weakness willing to appease Putin, rather than having the courage to stand up to him, will have global ramifications, as it will embolden autocrats around the world to act similarly, once they realize that America is abdicating its role as a world leader.

I watch the whole Vance/Trump outrage and it came across as completely fake and unprovoked -- there is no way it wasn't preplanned. I guess you had to be primed to fall for it.

Trump is not smart by any intellectual or emotional measure. He is an insecure child. But he is very good at manipulating the persuadables, and getting them to believe he is many things that he is not, by telling them what they want to hear, while he is picking their pocket, or deporting their abuela. Somehow he has maintained a core 30% cult following who believe whatever he says, like Mexico will pay for the wall, or the virus will go away, or the 2020 election was stolen (but not 2016 or 2024), or domestic terrorists are hostages/patriots, or foreign countries pay tariffs, or Zelenskyy is the dictator who started the war, etc. It's eerily Orwellian.

I can't imagine any strong self-confident leader so thin-skinned and getting offended and over-reacting because they weren't getting enough grovel and praise and thanks (despite Zelenskyy thanking America at least 33x). The way Vance was bootlicking Trump as the Supreme Leader almost made me feel sorry for him, until I recall how far he sold his soul from his educated never-Trumper days. I only feel shame that he joined a long line of Republican politicians who first hated Trump when they were truthful, then lost their spine and bent the knee and kissed the ring.

TDS is not a real thing. It is a fabricated soundbite used as an insult directed at those who value intelligence, character, morals, democracy, and American values.

hrunner2 wrote:

I don't care about Trump's policies or who he is - he isn't changing and they are what they are.

BUT I don't understand being enemies with another country for 80 years - consistent enemies - enemies that almost started WWIII together (Cuba) - and now we suddenly trust them, just like that. It doesn't even make sense in terms of personal relationships - who doesn't trust someone for years and years and then on a dime, feel that they can take their word for something.

And even that I can dismiss as Trump being Trump - no one should expect more from him. It is the fact that Americans just accepting, 'oh yeah, we are on board with trusting russia now too because Trump says so'... and all the other twists to the Russian-Ukraine narrative... it's really a cult. There is little independent thought or questioning of extremely disruptive decisions - decisions are fine - not questioning them at all - that is frightening

And there is a ridiculousness to it, 'you are risking WWIII' - WE as in Trump and the US are risking complete nuclear proliferation with our latest moves. Germany will go get the bomb, Japan, maybe even Canada. Without the protection of the U.S. nuclear umbrella - these countries will have no choice but defend themselves.. so it is our actions that are long term, widely elevating the risks of nuclear war

rekrunner wrote:

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

History will strongly disagree with you. Trump wants to end the war.

It doesn't take "courage" to send other people to die. You're not brave because you put a Ukrainian flag in your BlueSky bio...

Trump isn't "abdicating" anything. It's not the United States' job to fund and fight in every war on the planet.

Trump's issue with Zelensky isn't that he showed up in his pajamas or didn't grovel sufficiently. His issue is Zelensky thinks he's entitled to American tax dollars.

He is not.

TDS is 100% real and it has rotted your tiny brain.

There's nothing moral or intelligent about your position on Ukraine. You want other people to die so you can virtue signal. That's immoral. You want to prolong an unwinnable war so you can virtue signal. That's idiotic.

Grow up.

Grow up. Cute. Can we speak to each other like adults?

If you are lying to yourself about the present, how can you predict what history will say tomorrow? I think history will wonder how so many Americans keep being duped by cult leaders.

I never said Putin's war directly sending hundreds of thousands of soldiers and civilians to their deaths, was an act of courage. His invasion of sovereign nations is nostalgia from another aging dictator trying to restore his glory days, unable to accept the breakup of the former Soviet Union.

History has shown Trump is only interested in transactions for his personal benefit. He has made clear his interest in Ukraine -- mineral rights. Plus, if he gets major concessions from Ukraine, Russia and Putin will be indebted to Trump. Or possibly Trump is already deeply indebted to Putin (e.g. Putin's interference in the 2016 election, or providing Trump secret loans when the Western world stopped trusing him) and Trump is just making good on his debts. He doesn't even hide his ulterior motives. Look at his interest in Gaza: real estate deals on beach front hotels and sipping Mai Tai's with Netanyahu. Jared already foreshadowed that the last administration.

USA had a defacto global leadership position supporting and defending democracies and sovereignty as a world leader through various forms of diplomatic influence and economic pressure, and the occasional support of wars. Trump is abdicating America's leading role and democratic stance, in favor of propping up dictators and autocrats from the Axes of Evil, likely for his own personal gain.

It is the USA's job to ensure the terms of the agreements it is a party to are upheld. The USA signed an agreement with Ukraine and Russia in 1994, providing security assurances to and recognizing the independence and sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for nuclear decommissioning.

It is also in the interest of the USA, according to Top Republican leaders:

"Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell (R-KY): "This is not just some altruistic project. This passes every cold, hard, realistic calculation with flying colors. It’s the right move for American taxpayers, for American servicemembers, for our allies and partners… Our investment in Ukraine is restoring and rebuilding deterrence for pennies on the dollar.""

"Senate State-Foreign Operations Appropriations Ranking Member Lindsey Graham (R-SC): "If Putin dismembers Ukraine, he will not stop. China is more likely to go into Taiwan. The world will unravel and no domestic problem gets better here at home allowing Putin to destroy Ukraine – quite the opposite… We're spending money, but it's being spent on a good cause, the cause of freedom. So, I'm all in, whatever they need as long as they need it.""

"House Foreign Affairs Chairman Michael McCaul (R-TX): "I have supported U.S. assistance because a victory by Putin in Ukraine would further embolden Americans adversaries from Chairman Xi in Beijing to the Ayatollah and Tehran to Kim Jong-un in North Korea… Last month, I led a congressional delegation to Ukraine and Poland to conduct in-person oversight of U.S. aid to Ukraine. I saw firsthand the process is working.""

"House Intelligence Chairman Mike Turner (R-OH): "Overwhelmingly, there is support for continuing aid to Ukraine, so that they can continue to fight against this aggression of Russia.""

TDS is just rebranding historic American values that would normally berate and punish those who lie, cheat, steal, harrass, and otherwise behave immorally and criminally.

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

hrunner2 wrote:

I don't care about Trump's policies or who he is - he isn't changing and they are what they are.

BUT I don't understand being enemies with another country for 80 years - consistent enemies - enemies that almost started WWIII together (Cuba) - and now we suddenly trust them, just like that. It doesn't even make sense in terms of personal relationships - who doesn't trust someone for years and years and then on a dime, feel that they can take their word for something.

And even that I can dismiss as Trump being Trump - no one should expect more from him. It is the fact that Americans just accepting, 'oh yeah, we are on board with trusting russia now too because Trump says so'... and all the other twists to the Russian-Ukraine narrative... it's really a cult. There is little independent thought or questioning of extremely disruptive decisions - decisions are fine - not questioning them at all - that is frightening

And there is a ridiculousness to it, 'you are risking WWIII' - WE as in Trump and the US are risking complete nuclear proliferation with our latest moves. Germany will go get the bomb, Japan, maybe even Canada. Without the protection of the U.S. nuclear umbrella - these countries will have no choice but defend themselves.. so it is our actions that are long term, widely elevating the risks of nuclear war

It's got nothing to do with trust.

The Cuban missile crisis was instigated by the United States.

We put nuclear missiles in Turkey right on the USSR's border so the USSR responded by putting them in Cuba which was a literal tit for tat response and the US lost its mind and threatened to destroy the whole world if the missiles weren't removed.

Just like the US demanded control over what happened in Cuba Russia demands control over what happens in Ukraine.

I trust Russia to act in its own self interest. That's what they're doing in Ukraine. I don't have to agree with their reasoning or support their methods... but I respect their belief that they think they're the good guys and that their reasons are sound from their perspective so they will do what they say they will do.

The "good vs evil" black and white world the naive left and neocons live in is absurd.

Trump didn't start this war. He inherited it. Ukraine has already lost. The ONLY way Ukraine is getting its territory back is if Europe or the US commits military force to tip the scales on the ground in Ukraine.

Europe couldn't do this even if they wanted to and it's not in the United States' interest to do it.

Russia literally thinks in an existential war. That means they think if they lose their country is destroyed and never recovers. It baffles me that you people simultaneously claim Putin is an irrational monster and then say oh he'd never use nukes!

If the west steps in and defeats them on the battlefield there is a greater than 0% chance that Putin nukes the US or Europe on his way out.

It simply isn't worth the risk.

Half the equipment we send to Ukraine ends up on the black market. You'd have to be absolutely insane to give a country that corrupt nuclear weapons.

hrunner2 wrote:

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

It's got nothing to do with trust.

The Cuban missile crisis was instigated by the United States.

We put nuclear missiles in Turkey right on the USSR's border so the USSR responded by putting them in Cuba which was a literal tit for tat response and the US lost its mind and threatened to destroy the whole world if the missiles weren't removed.

Just like the US demanded control over what happened in Cuba Russia demands control over what happens in Ukraine.

I trust Russia to act in its own self interest. That's what they're doing in Ukraine. I don't have to agree with their reasoning or support their methods... but I respect their belief that they think they're the good guys and that their reasons are sound from their perspective so they will do what they say they will do.

The "good vs evil" black and white world the naive left and neocons live in is absurd.

Trump didn't start this war. He inherited it. Ukraine has already lost. The ONLY way Ukraine is getting its territory back is if Europe or the US commits military force to tip the scales on the ground in Ukraine.

Europe couldn't do this even if they wanted to and it's not in the United States' interest to do it.

Russia literally thinks in an existential war. That means they think if they lose their country is destroyed and never recovers. It baffles me that you people simultaneously claim Putin is an irrational monster and then say oh he'd never use nukes!

If the west steps in and defeats them on the battlefield there is a greater than 0% chance that Putin nukes the US or Europe on his way out.

It simply isn't worth the risk.

Half the equipment we send to Ukraine ends up on the black market. You'd have to be absolutely insane to give a country that corrupt nuclear weapons.

trust says he trusts putin to keep his word - so yeah, right there is the word 'trust'.
If you had written on this topic prior to trump and ukraine I have zero doubt your narrative would be quite different.

rekrunner wrote:

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

You're demanding the US draw a line in the sand in Ukraine. What do you think needs to happen to make that line mean anything?

Are you going to go get Putin?

You complain when I tell you grow up yet you keep using childlike reasoning.

Strongly worded emails and calling Putin names isn't going to stop the war. Ukraine can't stop them.

Stopping the war requires concessions to the side thats winning the war (Russia) or direct military participation from the US.

You don't seem to understand the situation we're in.

Tell me then. What situation are we in? Is Russia winning the war? It seems like they have lost a great deal in the last three years, for an invasion they said would only take three days.

My childlike reasoning is the reasoning that Congress used in bi-partisan support of Ukraine's self-defense against an illegal invasion into their sovereign territory. It is cheaper and in the US national security and economic interest to support Ukraine's defense, than to appease Putin's aggression with a false hope that if we give him what he wants, now he will behave. It is also the same reasoning of most of the world, apart from a handful of autocratic nations.

For all your "virtue signalling" of stopping wars to restore peace, Trump's naked position is to continue supporting Ukraine, in exchange for Ukranian minerals, and some bootlicking, or to withdraw US support, neither of which brings Putin and Zelenskyy to the negotiating table.

TheAdultInTheRoom wrote:

Yes Russia is 100% winning the war. Look at a map. It's not fast but the outcome is inevitable. Germany had no hope of victory in WW2 after the end of 1942. Just because the fighting is still happening doesn't mean the outcome isn't known.

Russia didn't say the invasion would take 3 days the American Chairman of the Joint Chief said it would take 3 days. He said that because he assumed Ukraine wouldn't be dumb enough to resist. Russia rolled in on parade with soldiers who literally had no idea they would face resistance. Russia didn't think Ukraine would fight back either which is why the initial invasion was such a sh*t show.

Your argument is that it's cheaper to fight a proxy war in Ukraine than a real war with Russia. Now you're demanding that we provide Ukraine security guarantees which literally means being willing to have a real war with Russia...

I don't agree with Trump's plan. I think we should walk the f*ck away.

Let Europe deal with it. And let them know that we're leaving NATO if they start a war with russia.