why does David Roche keep banging on about being in sub-4 at altitude shape?

There's no way David can run 6 x 1km in 2:45 at altitude or at sea level. Not with 2 minutes rest. Not with 4 minutes rest.

There's no way he could run 4:10 in the mile at altitude or at sea level (if he ran this time at sea level in super spikes in a paced race, I'd be very impressed and he would shut me up)

There's no way he would race Bolder Boulder 10k (because that is a timed, flat race where he could be compared to traditionally "elite" runners), and if he did, there's no way he'd run much faster than 32 flat, if he could even run 32 on that course.

There is no shame in this. There is nothing wrong with this. These are just the facts. And the fact that he doubles and triples down on the contrary is gross and, at this point, inexcusable

does David have any verifiable workouts on Strava that would indicate he could run such a workout? Meaning indicating that he is a sub 14 5k runner? Any tempo or interval workouts on the roads/path (flat)/ track? Workouts that aren't manual uploads of treadmill workouts?

He's a coach. If I was looking for guidance I would be looking at who he is working/ has worked with. His personal performances are immaterial. However, lying about any of his performances would mean anyone working with him should be wary.

I agree that personal performances shouldn't matter as much or at all if you are a coach. What I don't and will not understand is willingness and need to lie about his performances and workouts time and time and time again

Agreed. If anyone or David can show ONE verifiable workout—on the track, roads etc—that shows that he’s a sub 4 miler/ sub 14 minute 5k runner/ sub 29 minute 10k runner, then, okay, let’s see it.

No way he's running a sub 4 mile.

I also think he said it a bit off handed, and I doubt he seriously believes he could do it. He just took the statement one step too far, but also people calling him out on it are probably overdoing it too.

He's a very good ultra trail runner. Sub elite even. Good for him!

Right but it’s gotten to the point that he has said publicly time and time again that he can actually run a Sub 4. That’s what’s so bizarre.

Not to mention that he is running manually uploaded treadmill workouts that only a sub 29 minute 10k runner could run

It sounds like a freaking echo chamber in this thread. David is a liar, David is a terrible coach, David is doping, David can't run sub4/sub14... Can the Brojos check if it's the same IP address replying to themself over and over again? Looks especially fishy since most of the posts are not from registered users.

This is an anonymous message forum. Please stop trying to doxx any users here

The "hundreds of others" that they coach? So this is also a scam? Listen, lying about a possible Mile or 5000m time that you think you an do is one thing, but to dupe so many other paying athletes into thinking they are getting personalized training that is really just a generic plan is seemingly fraudulent. These Roches need to be held accountable. There seems to be a pattern of misleading people in that case.

to say they are being misleading is being very generous. They are liars, straight up

look at the sub 29 10k letsrun threads.

David is manually uploading treadmill that are equivalent to, or better than, the workouts posted in these threads.

In actuality, there is no indication--no workouts on track/roads etc and no race performances--that would indicate that David would be able to run a workout such as 6 x 1 mile with 1 minute rest at 5-6000 feet starting at 5 minutes and going down to 4:44 pace of 10 x 1 km with 1 minute rest starting at 2:55, and working down to 2:52.

In 2013, David ran a road 10k in 31:36. One of his club teammates in that race, Mike Franklin, won the race in 30:17. Franklin would go on to win the Penn Relays 10k in 29:32 the next spring.

So let's be VERY generous to David and say that he was VERY undertrained in 2013 and that he actually had the capacity to run the times Franklin did. That David was actually a 29:30 10k runner in 2013, but he was undertrained (there are no race results anywhere to indicate this, btw, I'm just being overly generous here)

Are you also saying that after 12 years, during which David has primarily trained and raced ultras, and now that David is 36 years old, that he is now a 29 minute 10k runner at the very slowest?

and fwiw that 31:31 10k two years into running converts to a 29:59 at sea level

is it possible that he COULD have been a sub 4 miler/sub 145k runner etc if he had spent high school training and college training for those events? Sure, it's possible.

Has he ever run times that would indicate as much? No. In fact, the only times he has ever run on flat courses indicates that he is much slower. He ran these times in his mid-20s, close to when his physical peak would be for mid-distance events

Is it possible that he could now run those times, as a 36 year old? No.

sure, I could be convinced of that. But no way, 12 years later, at 36, after primarily only training and racing ultras, is he now is sub 29 10k pace, which is significantly faster than 30 flat

6x1 mile today cutting down from 4:36-4:24... not buying it. Treadmill workout again.

I think David is a talented runner, no one here is arguing that point. This workout is insane compared to his previous level. He has posted on Strava for a long time, there is no need to go and extrapolate road race results from 12 years ago. This isn't anywhere close to workouts he has done in the past. So either the treadmill is wonky, he manually uploaded and fudged the numbers quite a bit, ketones carbohydrates and bicarb REALLY work, or something fishy is going on.

He was smoked by Walmsley ~10 years ago in a short trail race, which for David's skillset, should favor him more than Jim. If he is able to hang at Western States this year I am officially raising the red flag.

Nope. Not a chance. He said he did that workout today? He'd have to be in 28 flat 10k shape (or faster) to run that workout.