I am surprised that the people who know her personally are ALL still firm believers that she was clean and that this must have come from tainted supplements or sabotage.
I can't believe more people haven't said, "yep, that team was shady..."
You cannot know somebody is clean just by knowing them. People have secrets. They do bad things, even when they're good people. They tell themselves stories about why it's okay.
I know she is clean. Everyone close to her does. Yes people have secrets but they also share those secrets. Shelby is clean. She will show you when she returns.
I am surprised that the people who know her personally are ALL still firm believers that she was clean and that this must have come from tainted supplements or sabotage.
I can't believe more people haven't said, "yep, that team was shady..."
I suspect some are genuinely naive, but I also think at least one other, maybe more were taking the same thing she was doing and just got lucky they weren't caught.
I am surprised that the people who know her personally are ALL still firm believers that she was clean and that this must have come from tainted supplements or sabotage.
I can't believe more people haven't said, "yep, that team was shady..."
Assuming you are not making that up: at least they don't try to sell that stupid burrito joke anymore.
Tainted supplements: Houlihan has ruled them out.
Sabotage: Hard to do when the tester comes unannounced at 6 am. Do "the people who know her personally" suggest that her "roommate" tricked her into swallowing a pill after the doorbell rang? And would that have brought the nandrolone into her urine within minutes?
I suspect some are genuinely naive, but I also think at least one other, maybe more were taking the same thing she was doing and just got lucky they weren't caught.
Yeah, the reaction of the other BTC athletes basically proves to me that they’re all juicing. They just haven’t been caught yet thanks to USADA and USATF covering for them.
The fact remains that, however you want to describe it or explain it, there simply was no proof, nor evidence, direct or circumstantial or otherwise, of intent. The standard of proof used by the CAS for finding intent was "presumption".
Okay, this is helpful. I was using the terms "proof" and "evidence" as they are understood in the context of both logic and legal systems. You are using the terms to mean whatever you feel like.
The fact remains that, however you want to describe it or explain it, there simply was no proof, nor evidence, direct or circumstantial or otherwise, of intent. The standard of proof used by the CAS for finding intent was "presumption".
Okay, this is helpful. I was using the terms "proof" and "evidence" as they are understood in the context of both logic and legal systems. You are using the terms to mean whatever you feel like.
We weren't using the term "evidence" at all. The claim was "proof of intent".
Nevertheless, even in the commonly understood contexts of both logic and legal systems, there is simply no "evidence" or "proof" of "intent" to commit a rule violation. "Intent" is a state of mind. The evidentiary support for "intent" in the CAS report is completely non-exsistent, and the legal standard they applied was "presumption".
If I'm wrong, someone would have pointed me to the relevant parts of the CAS report already.
The fact remains that, however you want to describe it or explain it, there simply was no proof, nor evidence, direct or circumstantial or otherwise, of intent. The standard of proof used by the CAS for finding intent was "presumption".
Okay, this is helpful. I was using the terms "proof" and "evidence" as they are understood in the context of both logic and legal systems. You are using the terms to mean whatever you feel like.
Ok , so let's say I’m doing testosterone with the goal of looking better and to service my wife more often. coincidently i am an elite runner and get popped. It's not my intent to improve my running performance, so i should be just fine, right?
*showing "intent" is made up. The drug is in me, it enhances performance, I’m busted.
Additionally, returning to competition and breaking records does not prove i didn't dope 4 years ago
It’s so clear she’s guilty. The report clearly states that the level found in her system being from the food truck meat to be highly improbable. Contaminated meat also has a different isotope signature that was found in her test. The signature that was found in her test matches those of other samples from athletes that tested positive from supplements that are easily available from places like Amazon. She took a supplement that caused the positive test either knowingly or unknowingly. If she was taking supplements without knowing exactly what was in them then that’s just as dumb as taking it knowingly. She never tried that defense anyway because her team knew it would not stand up to being scrutinized.
Okay, this is helpful. I was using the terms "proof" and "evidence" as they are understood in the context of both logic and legal systems. You are using the terms to mean whatever you feel like.
Ok , so let's say I’m doing testosterone with the goal of looking better and to service my wife more often. coincidently i am an elite runner and get popped. It's not my intent to improve my running performance, so i should be just fine, right?
*showing "intent" is made up. The drug is in me, it enhances performance, I’m busted.
Additionally, returning to competition and breaking records does not prove i didn't dope 4 years ago
In this context, "intent" doesn't mean intended purpose, but intentionally violating rules, regardless of why, and regardless of whether it can or has enhanced performance.
No member of the BTC has done themselves any favors by standing with her. And I agree, they are suspicious as a group, especially miss 14:26...
But I do understand why they would support their friend. A friendship doesn't just go away. And I also do think there have been people who don't support her. They may just not be as public about it.
This is tossed salad. A higher intellectual standard serves to reject unsubstantiated speculation based on faith and fallacy.
He and many others have very good reason to exonerate Shelby Houlihan. Presumption is not a good marker for a four year ban.
An unbiased committee would have labeled it an atypical finding.
Many of us understand what it is to be cheated against firsthand as a distance runner, from having people beat us who actually cheated (although such people are few and far between in American distance running). I don’t understand what it is to be vilified based on presumption, nor will I ever have to go through what Shelby has because of CAS’ unwillingness to explore that they could have been wrong. Basically every one of us would agree that an innocent athlete being vilified is far worse than a dishonest one never getting caught.
This whole thing since the initial ruling in June of 2021 has been based on presumption.
What you fail to understand is why a presumption applies in such cases. When an athlete tests positive for a banned drug the presence of the drug can only be explained either by an unintended cause, such as accidental contamination or simple carelessness (which is also a finding of fault), or that the athlete chose to take the drug, which means it was an intentional act. The athlete is given the opportunity to rebut the presumption. If they fail to do so - as Houlihan did - then the finding will be of intent because accidental contamination or some such no fault explanation is ruled out. Essentially, it is the responsibility of the athlete to account for how the drug is found in their system, not for antidoping - which has found the drug. It is similar to being found in possession of stolen goods. If the accused in such a case was aware the goods were stolen - which is analogous to an athlete being aware the drug found in their system is a banned drug - then they can be presumed to have intentionally engaged in the act of receiving stolen goods, unless they can furnish a legitimate explanation. That was Houlihan - without the legitimate explanation.
Okay, this is helpful. I was using the terms "proof" and "evidence" as they are understood in the context of both logic and legal systems. You are using the terms to mean whatever you feel like.
We weren't using the term "evidence" at all. The claim was "proof of intent".
Nevertheless, even in the commonly understood contexts of both logic and legal systems, there is simply no "evidence" or "proof" of "intent" to commit a rule violation. "Intent" is a state of mind. The evidentiary support for "intent" in the CAS report is completely non-exsistent, and the legal standard they applied was "presumption".
If I'm wrong, someone would have pointed me to the relevant parts of the CAS report already.
Intent can be inferred from actions, and doesn't require evidence of state of mind. You repeatedly fail to understand this.
Okay, this is helpful. I was using the terms "proof" and "evidence" as they are understood in the context of both logic and legal systems. You are using the terms to mean whatever you feel like.
We weren't using the term "evidence" at all. The claim was "proof of intent".
Nevertheless, even in the commonly understood contexts of both logic and legal systems, there is simply no "evidence" or "proof" of "intent" to commit a rule violation. "Intent" is a state of mind. The evidentiary support for "intent" in the CAS report is completely non-exsistent, and the legal standard they applied was "presumption".
If I'm wrong, someone would have pointed me to the relevant parts of the CAS report already.
Intent in law isn't "state of mind". It isn't a psychological test. It is the inference that actions were deliberate unless they can be shown to be otherwise. In the criminal law, for example, it is presumed that the natural consequence of one's actions were intended. In antidoping it can thus be presumed that a drug which requires ingestion or application was the result of a deliberate - and thus intentional - act unless it is shown otherwise, because the presence of the drug in an athlete's system must have a cause. The onus falls on the athlete - and rightly so - to show legitimate cause if they are to avoid being found in violation of the rules.
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