So you're proving my point it's schrodingers 800. Thanks. I knew you would eventually admit I was right. Now if you were a coach and you had an athlete who could run a 22 200m and another who could run a 15 min 5k, which do you think you could coach to run a sub 150 800m? The aerobic ability for a 22 200 guy is easier to develop than the speed necessary for a 5k guy
I'm not proving your point. You are confused. You are no more likely to turn a schoolboy sprinter into an 800 runner than to try to do the same with a distance runner. A sprinter is not an md athlete - which as has been said repeatedly here is an athlete combining speed and endurance. The price of being the fastest over a short distance - as a sprinter is - is to lack endurance. Top 800m runners are not sprinters even though they can sprint as fast as schoolboy sprinters. They are fast endurance athletes. And a schoolboy sprinter is not a md athlete at school level either. The sprints and md - which the 800 is - are different events.
Yes like I said it's both. You must've struggled with reading comprehension. But aside, a point I made is it's easier to develop someones endurance than their speed. Every 800 runner was at a minimum an alternate for their schools 4x4 team. But not every 800 runner could make their xc team. But I'm done arguing or commenting back on your posts. You can't refute anything. At best you regurgitate what I already said. You're clearly retarded, but it's sad that you don't realize it and think you're intelligent so maybe you're delusional too
Mark Wetmore has observed that the number of athletes who can hold a world-class 800 meter pace for one lap numbers in the thousands, while those who can sustain it for the full two laps is only a handful. What most athletes lack is not the speed but the strength to sustain world class 800 meter speed.
it’s that simple, yet mark wetmore, renowned distance coach didn’t get any guys under 1:47 in all of those years at at colorado.
to be clear of my actual position - i am actually fine if you call 800m a distance race. thats just a label.
my real point is that both the physiology of an 800m athlete and modern training methods do not resemble 1500m physiology/training very much. it is obviously not the 400 either, but as i keep pointing to the NCAA, there are far more 800 guys that are part of a scoring 4x400 than there are 800 guys that can score in the 1500
wetmore’s comment here is probably exactly why i am so “passionate” about this subject. too many learned everything they know about the 800 from a cross country coach.
I'm not proving your point. You are confused. You are no more likely to turn a schoolboy sprinter into an 800 runner than to try to do the same with a distance runner. A sprinter is not an md athlete - which as has been said repeatedly here is an athlete combining speed and endurance. The price of being the fastest over a short distance - as a sprinter is - is to lack endurance. Top 800m runners are not sprinters even though they can sprint as fast as schoolboy sprinters. They are fast endurance athletes. And a schoolboy sprinter is not a md athlete at school level either. The sprints and md - which the 800 is - are different events.
Yes like I said it's both. You must've struggled with reading comprehension. But aside, a point I made is it's easier to develop someones endurance than their speed. Every 800 runner was at a minimum an alternate for their schools 4x4 team. But not every 800 runner could make their xc team. But I'm done arguing or commenting back on your posts. You can't refute anything. At best you regurgitate what I already said. You're clearly retarded, but it's sad that you don't realize it and think you're intelligent so maybe you're delusional too
The 800m is more of a long sprint then a distance race. I started out as a 10,000m runner in college but eventually moved to the 1,500m running 3:45 and split 1:48 in the 800m. The first time I broke 50 in a 400m was ironically during the first lap of an 800m in which we split through at 49.9. Everyone obviously faded in the last lap which my endurance catapulted me to the win down the homestretch. When I was strictly a 10,000m runner my pr was 30:04 with a 1:58 800m and a 3:57 1,500m. When I switched to the 800/1500 races my 10,000m went down to 29:05. The 800m would be like the bareknuckle boxing event of track and field, the only close comparison would be the 400HH.
It's a sprint where endurance determines the winner?
100% agreed. In the 800m to even be in the race early on you need incredible foot speed. For example, I had a college teammate that was a 13:30/28:20 type and could not even compete with me in the 800/1500 and I was a 14:15/29:05 type endurance guy. I for example did not even know I was an 800/1500 type runner until our coach noticed certain attributes for example, during or weekly weight training all of the distance runners would work out together doing 115-to-135-pound reps for bench press to get a workout in. I would workout with the sprinters and sometimes even throwers as I needed 200 plus pounds usually 225 to get a workout in. I eventually maxed out on the bench 315 pounds post running, however. I had a tough time keeping a lean frame and was typically 165 pounds. Our college coach decided to have all of the distance guys do an 800m in a decent track meet for speed work average time was 2:00-2:10 all 14:30-15:00 and 30:30-31:30 type guys. I ran 1:53 first attempt at the distance. My coach immediately moved me to the 800/1500, Championships meets I would run the rare 1500/10,000 double.
it’s that simple, yet mark wetmore, renowned distance coach didn’t get any guys under 1:47 in all of those years at at colorado.
to be clear of my actual position - i am actually fine if you call 800m a distance race. thats just a label.
my real point is that both the physiology of an 800m athlete and modern training methods do not resemble 1500m physiology/training very much. it is obviously not the 400 either, but as i keep pointing to the NCAA, there are far more 800 guys that are part of a scoring 4x400 than there are 800 guys that can score in the 1500
wetmore’s comment here is probably exactly why i am so “passionate” about this subject. too many learned everything they know about the 800 from a cross country coach.
This right here. If you wanna call the 800M mid distance, then fine. But to categorize it the same as the 1500/mile is goofy. Emphasis on the last part of this quote, as I really wish XC coaches were more knowledgeable on 800M and stopped pretending it's a distance race
I feel that's probably most common at the HS level because coaching a pure 800 athlete is fairly uncommon and most of them are just faster-than-average XC kids who run like 1:56. These kids also tend to be wasting talent by not pursuing the mile instead (tho typically once they go to college they move up to 1500)
You are no more likely to turn a schoolboy sprinter into an 800 runner than to try to do the same with a distance runner. A sprinter is not an md athlete - which as has been said repeatedly here is an athlete combining speed and endurance. The price of being the fastest over a short distance - as a sprinter is - is to lack endurance. Top 800m runners are not sprinters even though they can sprint as fast as schoolboy sprinters. They are fast endurance athletes.
Wow, this post is terrible.
1. The world record holder in the 800 was LITERALLY a "schoolboy sprinter" before moving to the 800. He raced the 400 seriously as a young man, and there is no 400 runner who hasn't run some 200s and 100s. He doesn't have a single recorded 1500/mile, and his coach is quoted saying he struggled to run 15:xx 5ks.
2. "Fast endurance athletes" my a $$. Most of the best 800 runners in history were relatively USELESS over 1000m, precisely BECAUSE they were best suited to the speed of events 70s-105s in length (600/800).
1. The world record holder in the 800 was LITERALLY a "schoolboy sprinter" before moving to the 800. He raced the 400 seriously as a young man, and there is no 400 runner who hasn't run some 200s and 100s. He doesn't have a single recorded 1500/mile, and his coach is quoted saying he struggled to run 15:xx 5ks.
2. "Fast endurance athletes" my a $. Most of the best 800 runners in history were relatively USELESS over 1000m, precisely BECAUSE they were best suited to the speed of events 70s-105s in length (600/800).
3. 100 seconds is NOT an endurance duration.
Exactly. Some people here are saying that two whole laps on a 400 meter track in 100.91 seconds isn't practically sprinting...
If Rudisha had decided to pursue the 400M over 800M he probably could've managed 20.xx/44.xx. Obviously not anywhere near the level of his 800m ability but still very impressive sprinting times.
The top guys are all running about 101-102 seconds for the 800m right now. The 3 most consistent out of the fast year are: Arop, Wanyoni and Sedajti who would ALL be better 1500m runners then 400m runners.
To those who refute otherwise, I really question your knowledge of physiology. Arop might lean the most towards the 400m out of the three, but you can literally go on YouTube and watch how much strength work Arop did in preparation for the Olympics this year. Off the top of my head, I can think of 5x mile repeats at 4:30-4:40 and a steady state 10 mile run through the woods of Mississippi.
As for Wanyoni and Sedajti we're talking about guys who I truly believe can go sub 3:30 in the 1500m (pending staying clean in the eyes of WADA).
The top guys are all running about 101-102 seconds for the 800m right now. The 3 most consistent out of the fast year are: Arop, Wanyoni and Sedajti who would ALL be better 1500m runners then 400m runners.
To those who refute otherwise, I really question your knowledge of physiology. Arop might lean the most towards the 400m out of the three, but you can literally go on YouTube and watch how much strength work Arop did in preparation for the Olympics this year. Off the top of my head, I can think of 5x mile repeats at 4:30-4:40 and a steady state 10 mile run through the woods of Mississippi.
As for Wanyoni and Sedajti we're talking about guys who I truly believe can go sub 3:30 in the 1500m (pending staying clean in the eyes of WADA).
Here is Wanyoni beating a 3:33 and 7:57 guy in 2000m cross country. I think we can all agree that a 6 minute race is highly aerobic.
400m runners can make good 800m runners! but the 800m is NOT a sprint and it REQUIRES endurance. The best of the best right now are proving that.
I will partially agree with you here.
We aren't saying the 800 doesn't require endurance. Of course it does. So does the 400.
The 800 is still a controlled sprint. Sure, it could be both like some are saying. But is it really so much an endurance-based event that it should be considered one? I don't think so
All the 1:41's this year I find a bit questionable anyways. Especially NEGATIVE SPLITTING 1:41.
The 800M world record requires an extremely fast first lap and a controlled secondary lap. Rudisha did it perfectly. 23.4 seconds for the first 200 meters, 25.88 seconds for the second, 25.02 seconds for the third, and 26.61 seconds for the last. If that isn't a controlled sprint to you, idk what is.
"they would all be better at 1500m than 400m" Maybe so. Maybe not. Idrk. They don't have enough recorded results to prove either way, imo. Another reason why I question the cleanliness of all these 1:41's. Wanyonyi, sure, but let's see him actually try an open 400M first. Perhaps Sedjati, too. Didn't he mention moving up to 1500M in the future?
Arop on the other hand I'm confident is more speed-based. He has an immense build for an 800M runner and him repping 4:30 miles doesn't mean he can run a 3:50 mile.
Im glad we are finding some common ground, but I am also struggling to find the point you are trying to make here.
I'll make mine clear: Elite 800m training in 2024 requires a heavy load of aerobic work as well as the development of speed and power.
The 800m is an in between event that can neither be classified as a sprint or a distance runner. that is why we have the term mid distance.
With that in mind, although both 400/800 runners and and 800/1500 runners can find success in the event, elite 800m runners actually have a tendency to be better at the 1500m then they are at the 400m
This might sound hard to believe but I did individual research to prove this, I just don't know if this is the place to put it lol.
Maybe we can be more on the same page too. So I suppose my biggest problem with what you've been saying is your loose classification of 800/1500. (IE I think it's just Hobbs and possibly Wanyonyi) - I may have no real problems if you just call everyone else 800m specialists.
"Elite 800m training in 2024 requires a heavy load of aerobic work as well as the development of speed and power."
I agree with this statement if I just read it. Where we may or may not disagree - would you agree that this heavy load of aerobic work is not nearly as heavy as what a 1500m runner needs/does? I totally agree that 800 guys do mile repeats and some of them do long runs... But the total mileage is often half of what milers at the same level are doing.
Ex: Brandon Miller and Josh Kerr have the same coach, but different training schedules. What do you think happens if they switched?
I have yet to see a top 100/200 sprinter compete in let alone win an 800. If the 800 was a sprint it would be raced by sprinters. It isn't.
Did anyone say the 800 is a sprint? It is a fast middle distance event which requires very good to excellent foot speed. Slower than a sprint yet fast than 1500 or longer.
Maybe we can be more on the same page too. So I suppose my biggest problem with what you've been saying is your loose classification of 800/1500. (IE I think it's just Hobbs and possibly Wanyonyi) - I may have no real problems if you just call everyone else 800m specialists.
"Elite 800m training in 2024 requires a heavy load of aerobic work as well as the development of speed and power."
I agree with this statement if I just read it. Where we may or may not disagree - would you agree that this heavy load of aerobic work is not nearly as heavy as what a 1500m runner needs/does? I totally agree that 800 guys do mile repeats and some of them do long runs... But the total mileage is often half of what milers at the same level are doing.
Ex: Brandon Miller and Josh Kerr have the same coach, but different training schedules. What do you think happens if they switched?
Yea same here. My biggest philosophy is that you just can't train 800M and 1500M the same. 800M requires slightly more speed and power than it does endurance (but of course endurance is vital as well) I'd say it's maybe a 60/40 basis?
There's no reason for an 800 athlete of any kind to be doing the same mileage as a 1500 athlete, per se. Even Hobbs Kessler, I don't think he does more than like 6 or 7 miles on his long runs
The statement, "elite 800m runners actually have a tendency to be better at the 1500m then they are at the 400m" is valid, but at the same time, have you seen 800 runners in a 4x4 as well?? They can go absolutely ballistic in one. For example Devin Dixon literally split 43.92 at 2018 nattys a few hours after running 1:45. He's a perfect example of a speed-base athlete, like Will Sumner.
I'm sure they could probably run a decent 1500M too, but nowhere near the global scale of competition, let alone collegiate-level.
I guess it just really comes down to the type of athlete. The 800 really is quite the hybrid. My personal belief is that because it is so long but so fast at the same time, it basically feels like a controlled sprint, which I've had many coaches perceive that it is.
Personally, I think the 400/800 type will always outwork the 800/1500 type, as like I said, speed will get you further than endurance will, and those with natural excellency in footspeed tend to perform better overall when moving up to the distance
yep, i am a big fan of the a&m 800 program. loved to see devin dixon go head to head with michael norman and grant holloway on the 4x400.
kimar farquharson is another 800 guy on their current roster good for a 44 split. think he’s the second fastest guy on the 4x400 even though the aggies also have a loaded 400 roster
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