We all know that's bs. She is female. Why? Because she says so. Why are you whatever gender you are? Because you say so. End of story.
You are not a gender just because you say so. That is as ridiculous as saying you are whatever race because you say so. Or you are whatever age because you say so. Biology determines your gender. End of story.
How do you define gender? And don't say biology. You may think that biology defines gender. But that is not what I asked. How do YOU define gender?
Answer is two categories with the female category constrained by physiological eligibility requirements that ensure that the fraction of cis women winning medals is comparable to the corresponding fraction for trans/DSD women. WA arguably has been hunting for such physiological requirements in its going back and forth on its eligibility policy strictness over the last few decades.
Its current (2023) policy is almost certainly unfair to non-cis women because they have literally zero chance of being competitive at the elite level. It is also unhealthy and dangerous to pressure kids under 12 to make a permanent life-altering choice.
How would athlete safety factor into your categories for sports such as boxing or rugby?
The physiological constraints designed to ensure fairness of winning potential must by definition constrain strength and agility for boxers, which automatically makes the two subgroups comparable to each other in damage potential as well. You have to be disingenuously using the “violence against women” card to claim otherwise.
Boxing is a contact sport and can and does cause serious injuries even entirely amongst cis men or cis women, so you can’t expect absolute safety, only no worse than today.
All of these twits saying 'but but but XY! testicles! XY!' seem to have no idea that a person can have an XY karyotype, and testicles, and complete feminization (possible due to a number of causes).
This includes but is not limited to 5-alpha reductase deficiency, which essentially prevents the 'male' effects of testosterone, with many patients being 'female' by any rational assessment, including that of their parents, doctors, and eventually their male sexual partners.
If they have testicles they are male. If they are XY they are male.
Looks like you never studied biology beyond your high school class.
We all know that's bs. She is female. Why? Because she says so. Why are you whatever gender you are? Because you say so. End of story.
You are not a gender just because you say so. That is as ridiculous as saying you are whatever race because you say so. Or you are whatever age because you say so. Biology determines your gender. End of story.
That is not ridiculous either. Race is also a social construct. Everyman will understand just fine if you said you are culturally black but your skin color was brown, yellow, or white. You would simply be considered black with non-black skin. You could jump up and down insisting that black is strictly only a skin color that’s immutable and determined by your melanocyte genetics but others don’t have to subscribe to your restrictive definition.
You are not a gender just because you say so. That is as ridiculous as saying you are whatever race because you say so. Or you are whatever age because you say so. Biology determines your gender. End of story.
That is not ridiculous either. Race is also a social construct. Everyman will understand just fine if you said you are culturally black but your skin color was brown, yellow, or white. You would simply be considered black with non-black skin. You could jump up and down insisting that black is strictly only a skin color that’s immutable and determined by your melanocyte genetics but others don’t have to subscribe to your restrictive definition.
Same thing with gender and sex.
I completely agree. At what point is someone black (or any other race)? 1/2? 1/4? 1/64? There is no definition, just like gender. It is up to the person to decide whether or not they consider themselves black (or any other race).
I worked closely with an athlete who was giving 100% to break 2 minutes in the 800m. She was totally demoralized by the way Caster could just float to a 1:55 like it was a jog.
Many men giving 100% to break 1:50 in the 800m.
Should they all be totally demoralized by people with different physical attributes floating to a 1:45 like it was a jog?
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is a condition only found in males.
Whether AIS is complete (CAIS), partial (PAIS) or mild (MAIS), it only occurs in males, and it only affects the sex development of males. By definition, AIS is a disorder/difference of male sex development or DMSD.
When female human beings have impaired or absent sensitivity to androgens, we do not have AIS or any other DSD as a result. Because female sex development is not dependent on androgens. Only male sex development is.
AIS is caused by mutations of the AR gene, which is located on the X chromosome. Many girls and women have the same exact mutations of the AR gene that cause AIS in males, but females do not have AIS as a result. Because with the exception of females who are 45,X or have a couple of other extremely rare DSDs, virtually all human females have a 46,XX or 47,XXX sex chromosome pattern - thus we have a second (or third) AR gene on our second or third X chromosome to fall back on.
So even if a female person has a mutated AR gene on one of our X chromosomes that would lead to impaired or absent androgen response, the non-mutated AR gene on our additional X chromosome(s) will serve as as fail-safe back-up, doing the job that the one damaged AR gene on our other X chromsome can't do.
70% of the time, CAIS is caused by an inherited AR mutation on the X chromosome that's passed down to offspring from their mothers. 30% of the time, CAIS is caused by a "di novo" AR mutation that occurs in the early stages of cell divsion after conception.
But when women have a mutation of the AR gene that damages or disables the gene which they pass on to their offspring when they become mothers, the women/mothers will not have AIS themselves. Because AIS is a male-only condition.
Moreover, when women with an AR gene mutation that can cause AIS in male offspring pass on their mutated AR gene to their children, only the males will develop Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome as a result. Female offspring who inherit the very same AR gene mutation that causes AIS in males will not have AIS or any other health condition as a result.
Similarly, females who develop a di novo mutation of the AR gene during early embryogenesis will not develop AIS, either.
Many females with a mutaton of the AR gene that causes AIS in males go their entire lives unaware that they have the mutation. If they do end up finding out that they have a mutated AR gene, it will usually be only because they've had a male child who turns out to have AIS.
But all that said, the fact remainst that AIS is totally different to XY 5-ARD, the DMSD that Imane Khelif and Caster Semenya have. So different that these conditions are essentially apples and oranges that it's not fair to lump together.
This post was edited 12 minutes after it was posted.
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is a condition only found in males.
Whether AIS is complete (CAIS), partial (PAIS) or mild (MAIS), it only occurs in males, and it only affects the sex development of males. By definition, AIS is a disorder/difference of male sex development or DMSD.
When female human beings have impaired or absent sensitivity to androgens, we do not have AIS or any other DSD as a result. Because female sex development is not dependent on androgens. Only male sex development is.
AIS is caused by mutations of the AR gene, which is located on the X chromosome. Many girls and women have the same exact mutations of the AR gene that cause AIS in males, but females do not have AIS as a result because with the exception of females who are 45,X, all human females are 46,XX or 47,XXX - thus we have a second (or third) AR gene on our second or third X chromosome to fall back on.
So even if a female person has a mutated AR gene on one of our X chromosomes that would lead to impaired or absent androgen response, the non-mutated AR gene on our additional X chromosome(s) will serve as as back up, doing the job that our damaged AR gene on one of our X chromsomes can't do.
70% of the time, CAIS is caused by an inherited AR mutation on the X chromosome that's passed down to offspring from their mothers. 30% of the time, CAIS is caused by a "di novo" AR mutation that occurs in the early stages of cell divsion after conception. But when women have a mutation of the AR gene that damages or disables the gene which they pass on to their offspring when they become mothers, the women/mothers will not have AIS themselves. Because AIS is a male-only condition.
Moreover, when women with an AR gene mutation that can cause AIS pass on their mutated AR gene to their offspring, only the male offspring will develop Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome as a result. Female offspring who inherit the very same AR gene mutation that causes AIS in males will not have AIS or any other health condition as a result.
Similarly, females who develop a di novo mutation of the AR gene during early embryogenesis will not develop AIS, either. They will most likely go their entire lives unaware that they have the mutation. If they do end up finding out that they have a mutated AR gene, it will usually be only because they've had a male child who turns out to have AIS.
But all that said, the fact remainst that AIS is totally different to the DMSD that Imane Khelif and Caster Semenya have, which is XY 5-ARD.
Also, the way you keep bringing up and posting photos of individuals with CAIS and other rare DSDs in threads about male athletes with XY 5-ARD - and male athletes with trans gender identities - in female sports really doesn't reflect well on you. Nor does it have the effect you seem to be going for, either.
I realize you regard other people's rare medical conditions affecting their sex development like CAIS, XX male syndrome, and XY gonadal dysgenesis as handy "gotchas" that make you seem clever and worldly whenever you trot them out - and that you also see the existence of these unfortunate medical conditions as evidence of why it's justified and righteous of you to hold and promote the misogynistic view that female humans don't constitute a distinct sex class separate to and very different to male humans with DSDs - and thus why we don't deserve legal recognition as a distinct sex class, and we shouldn't be allowed to have any sex-based sports, spaces, services and protections that are just for us. But the truth is, the tiresome, exploitative way you constantly bring up and point fingers at people with these rare disorders/differences of male sex development doesn't have the effect that you think it does.
Yo Verbosa, “DMSD” is not a thing. Don’t invent your own terminology. It doesn’t work outside of anonymous incel forums.
Yo Verbosa, “DMSD” is not a thing. Don’t invent your own terminology. It doesn’t work outside of anonymous incel forums.
Yo muckle, don't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. Also, it's incredibily misogynistic for men to tell women what language we're allowed to use.
But thanks for the tip about anonymous incel forums. Since I'm not an incel myself, incel forums aren't my bag - in fact, they're totally foreign to me. So I appreciate the insight from someone who obviously knows the lay of the land on incel forums like the back of his hand.
You are not a gender just because you say so. That is as ridiculous as saying you are whatever race because you say so. Or you are whatever age because you say so. Biology determines your gender. End of story.
How do you define gender? And don't say biology. You may think that biology defines gender. But that is not what I asked. How do YOU define gender?
"Gender" - as those like you define it - an imagined fiction - isn't what determines whether a person be eligible to compete in a specific category. In this case it is sex. If you aren't female by sex you have no place in women's sport.
Yo Verbosa, “DMSD” is not a thing. Don’t invent your own terminology. It doesn’t work outside of anonymous incel forums.
Yo muckle, don't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. Also, it's incredibily misogynistic for men to tell women what language we're allowed to use.
Seems like that's what I've been telling you! Stay tf out of our business if you don't have anything nice to say. As you just said, "Dont tell me what to do." I am legally allowed to run as a myself, so stop trying to strip me of my rights. And by the way, its very trans-misogynistic to tell me that by simply living as myself I am living in a fantasy, or to tell me that when I work my @ss off every day to barely make varsity I am stealing spots from 'real' girls.
The fact that you think you can complain about someone critiquing your grammar when you are critiquing my legal status and my existence is utterly ridiculous.
How do you define gender? And don't say biology. You may think that biology defines gender. But that is not what I asked. How do YOU define gender?
"Gender" - as those like you define it - an imagined fiction - isn't what determines whether a person be eligible to compete in a specific category. In this case it is sex. If you aren't female by sex you have no place in women's sport.
That still doesn't answer my question. And do you know why? Because you don't have an answer. You know that whatever you say is inconsistent and that there will always be examples of why someone is not the gender YOU want THEM to be.
Seems like that's what I've been telling you! Stay tf out of our business if you don't have anything nice to say. As you just said, "Dont tell me what to do." I am legally allowed to run as a myself, so stop trying to strip me of my rights. And by the way, its very trans-misogynistic to tell me that by simply living as myself I am living in a fantasy, or to tell me that when I work my @ss off every day to barely make varsity I am stealing spots from 'real' girls.
The fact that you think you can complain about someone critiquing your grammar when you are critiquing my legal status and my existence is utterly ridiculous.
A lot of girls work their a$$ off every day and never make varsity, so, yes, if you are a male you are stealing spots from real (without the quotes) girls.
"Gender" - as those like you define it - an imagined fiction - isn't what determines whether a person be eligible to compete in a specific category. In this case it is sex. If you aren't female by sex you have no place in women's sport.
That still doesn't answer my question. And do you know why? Because you don't have an answer. You know that whatever you say is inconsistent and that there will always be examples of why someone is not the gender YOU want THEM to be.
I don't give a sh*t what gender anyone says they are. But if they aren't female by sex they have no place in women's sport. The criterion for inclusion is biological - like weight divisions in boxing, or age divisions - not self-defined identity.
Yo muckle, don't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. Also, it's incredibily misogynistic for men to tell women what language we're allowed to use.
The fact that you think you can complain about someone critiquing your grammar when you are critiquing my legal status and my existence is utterly ridiculous.
FYI, that poster who I call Transphobia Verbosa invents or denies or abuses language to suit its agenda. DMSD is a good example and is a cleverly crafted label for what everyone else calls DSD or intersex. You won’t find DMSD used anywhere legitimate. It also denies the term “intersex” entirely and feigns outrage by claiming it’s offensive to DSD people to label them as exotic limbo beings when the real reason is that it doesn’t want to acknowledge that sex isn’t a binary.
It also doesn’t care to accord anyone the dignity of their correct pronouns or nouns, so I don’t accord it that either. Funny thing is if you disagree with it, it takes it up its chin on behalf of all women and declares you misogynistic.
Androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) is a condition only found in males.
Women could have Androgen Insensitivity. It is usually undiagnosed because there is no noticeable symptom.
For a woman or girl with the most common sex chromosome patterns in female humans - 46,XX or 47,XXX - to have AIS would mean she has to have an AIS mutation of the AR gene on both or all three of her X chromosomes.
Since males with an AIS mutation on their one X chromosome can't reproduce, fathers can't pass along an AIS mutation of the AR gene to their daughters. The X chromosome she gets from her father would have to develop a di novo AR gene mutation during meoisis after conception.
She'd also have to get an AIS mutation of the AR gene from her mother. Either by inheriting a previously-extant AIS mutation of the AR gene on the X chromosome that her mother has, or by getting a normal AR gene from her mother that would develop a mutation during meiosis after conception like happened with the X chromosome she got from her father.
I suppose this could happen. I personally a very odd, "once in a blue moon" combination of extremely rare mutations causastive of hereditary hemochromatosis and cystic fibrosis. So I admit it could happen. But the odds of this happening seem so extremely small as to be almost impossible.
But as you say, even if it does happen there be no noticeable symptom. And even if a female had an AIS mutation on both or all three of her X chromosomes, it wouldn't cause a female person to have Androgen Insensitivy Syndrome coz that's a condition that requires a Y chromosome, or at least the SRY gene usually on the Y, and testes.
If a female person has mosacisim, the chances of every one of her X chromosomes having an AIS mutation becames even rarer.
I think the fact that shocks non-runners the most is that a boy at my daughter's school (two years ago) who barely trained, ate junk food, goofed around like a normal boy, and somehow ran 1:52 in the 800m.
I think non-runners don't realize how easy it was for this kid compared to how hard all the women on Earth have trained, sacrificed, and worked. Yet all the women (even the doped ones) were never faster than that Big Mac eating 11th grader...
Testosterone is the king of the PEDs. To allow it (at male levels) into women's sports is to ruin women's competition (as we saw during the Caster/Niyonsaba years).
It's this - they don't. And it's a frustrating education gap/void.
My wife and her friends don't get it and why/how would they? Even when I explain to them that the fastest woman on the planet wouldn't get out of the first round in the 100m at the Texas state HS boys meet they don't, nor even want to attempt to, understand the gravity of this. I tell them that by the age of 14 I was good enough to win the Olympic womens 800m title and by 15 was a second inside the womens WR - again it's still meaningless to them.
Even when you explain that this is about women's rights and female equality they don't get that either - it's just lost in sea of emotional ideology that has nothing to do with facts or reality. But end of the day this isn't really about that is it? It's really about sounding compassionate, empathetic and reasonable.
Also one thing I might add to this - the person at the center of this issue isn't transgender right? (I'm responding here to other comments about transgender people in competitive sport) If we want to be bastions of facts and science we need to be consistent. This is a biologically intersex athlete that hasn't unethically been identifying as a female their entire life. This is very different to a Lia Thomas situation even if the physiological scenario is the same and the danger to the health and safety of this athletes competitors very really real and present due to the nature of the sport. This is also doesn't mean I believe they should be allowed to compete against XX chromosome athletes, because I don't.
Are you throwing a hypothetical out, or is your wife truly unable to understand? Yikes
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