'Doping in Kenya is completely out of control'

OED wrote:

Do not mistake me for the typical LR poster. I have been around the elite levels of this sport literally from the day I was born. I know far, far more than you realize.

Every argument you make in support of Renato overlooks the (potential) obvious. The man claims that he knew nothing of rampant doping in a country that has had more positive tests in the last 8 years than anyone else by far. Just think about that for a second and maybe the light will finally go on for you.

Your arguments about Kenyan history are nonsense. Kenyans were not subject to any sort of serious out of competition testing (not just for EPO) for 30 years. That is a fact! And yet you dare argue that the lack of widespread positive testing during this period actually supports your position that they weren’t doping. Talk about absurd! The rampant positive tests we have seen for the last 8 years in Kenya are ample evidence of widespread doping programs so deeply ingrained in Kenyan culture that even when these clowns know the tests are coming they cannot change. Regarding your specific EPO arguments after testing began, you seem to not be aware of the existence of masking agents for some reason. Google Lance Armstrong since you don’t seem to understand what lengths people go through to hide EPO usage and how successful they can be. Your head is so firmly entrenched in the sand that you refuse to see the obvious in all of this.

rekrunner wrote:

OED wrote:

Do not mistake me for the typical LR poster. I have been around the elite levels of this sport literally from the day I was born. I know far, far more than you realize.

Every argument you make in support of Renato overlooks the (potential) obvious. The man claims that he knew nothing of rampant doping in a country that has had more positive tests in the last 8 years than anyone else by far. Just think about that for a second and maybe the light will finally go on for you.

Your arguments about Kenyan history are nonsense. Kenyans were not subject to any sort of serious out of competition testing (not just for EPO) for 30 years. That is a fact! And yet you dare argue that the lack of widespread positive testing during this period actually supports your position that they weren’t doping. Talk about absurd! The rampant positive tests we have seen for the last 8 years in Kenya are ample evidence of widespread doping programs so deeply ingrained in Kenyan culture that even when these clowns know the tests are coming they cannot change. Regarding your specific EPO arguments after testing began, you seem to not be aware of the existence of masking agents for some reason. Google Lance Armstrong since you don’t seem to understand what lengths people go through to hide EPO usage and how successful they can be. Your head is so firmly entrenched in the sand that you refuse to see the obvious in all of this.

Whoever you are, I can only judge you by the content and substance and accuracy of your posts.

What did Renato claim again? If you scroll back to page 2, Renato says he knew about Kenya's rampant doping, as early as 2012: "Before London Olympics, I started to see something strange (people not involved in athletics present in the domestic road races proposing "supplements" for enhancing the performances), together with Patrick Sang, and went to meet Isaiah for explaining the problem". It is not the first time I saw him say something similar.

Regarding serious testing, the part of your claim that renders it nonsense is "while the rest of the world is subject to legitimate testing". For example, we know that this wasn't the case in Russia and China. In a lengthy interview with Sandro Donati about why WADA was formed, we know it wasn't the case in Italy. Probably not in Spain (famous for EPO) or France or Holland either. I googled Armstrong and learned he is actually not Kenyan, but comes from Texas. Just google "cycling" to see how legitimate IC and OOC testing was in the rest of the world, since you don't seem to understand what lengths people went through to hide doping, and how successful they can be. WADA was created precisely because the testing and enforcement was not uniform around the world. 30 years ago, the organizations doing the testing were conflicted because they were also promoting the sport.

Regarding data, it is not just that you lack data about Kenya, but also that you lack data for the rest of the world. To the extent I have expressed a position, "my position" is that, if "EPO works" for Kenyans, it works for everyone. Theoretically, it should work even better for sea-level athletes, than altitude based ones. It is not the Kenyan data which may or may not exist, but the relatively scarce quantity, and relative poor quality, of world class performances from non-African sea-level athletes, even when no test existed, that forms the basis of my doubts. Apparently one of the best non-African "examples" is Cathal Lombard, someone who doesn't even appear in the top-1000 runners all time, for equalling what the UK did in 1973.

Regarding masking EPO, before the ABP, there would be little reason to mask blood values, as blood wasn't an accepted criteria for banning athletes. We know from several studies that IAAF was detecting higher blood values for an estimated +/-15% of the athletes, from 2001-2009, and again in 2011, and again in 2013. Similarly, it doesn't look like cyclists attempted to reduce blood values (extreme RET%) until after 2007, when cycling introduced the ABP (source ABP parameters, Journal of Human Sport and Exercise, 2011).

Telling it like it is wrote:

But the pre-EPO Lombard with his 30 minute PB what have been lapped twice plus by Barrios & Lopes. 🤣

So, he closed the gap quite a bit with rocket fuel setting the Irish NR plus achieving the Olympic standard for the 5 & 10. I'd say EPO was highly efficacious in his case.

Part of your undoing is always comparing these PED-Powered times of these dopers with the all-time fastest. You then reach an illogical conclusion that EPO is ineffective because the doper didn't beat those times instead of looking at the individual performance improvement of the doper.

Lombard shaves off 3 mins, sets the Irish NR & qualifies for the Olympics despite not running as fast as Barrios & Lopes. That fact doesn't nullify his own individual improvement from EPO.

After all, your platform is - and always has been - that EPO is ineffective with elites. And we have a non-African elite from Europe who clearly benefited from the use of EPO.

Case closed.

OED wrote:

Wow! Renato claims he knew something way back in 2012! You and Renato (assuming you are actually different people - the hours you spending here defending him every day suggests otherwise), continually fail to think through your excuses. You both seem to claim that doping in Kenya is only a recent thing. That for the 35+ years that Kenyans weren’t subject to out of competition testing they and their saintly European coaches, agents, and “nutritionists,” weren’t doping. Instead, it was only recently that this became an issue, and it only really became a problem AFTER AK announced and began testing. Doping only began after testing was implemented? That is absurd! Nothing changed in 2012. And the only thing that has changed since then is that testing has been implemented for once. Your continued reliance on the lack of “data” when no testing was occurring is laughable. The data of the last eight years, however, is overwhelming.

You continue to mistake any criticism of Kenya as some sort of effort to single them out or treat them differently than other nations. Of course if EPO works for Kenyans it will work for non-Kenyans. But the reverse is also true, which neither you nor Renato seems to grasp. I know doping has been going on in other parts of the world, although your choice to compare Kenya to Russia, China, and Italy (wait, don’t we know someone from there) is certainly puzzling. I know far better than you just how rampant it is in the United States and for how long. But we aren’t talking about those countries, all of whom have rightly been castigated for doping for years. We are talking about Kenya. A country that for years has placed itself on a pedestal as the ultimate in distance running. A country whose athletes claim they were simply that much better than everyone else because of some hocum about proud Masai warrior traditions and other nonsense. My point is to expose Kenya for what it is: a corrupt nation whose running prowess was, is, and apparently will continue to be, based on drugs. Kenyans are not superhuman. They are not harder workers or more genetically gifted than athletes from other parts of the world. Kenya is not special, which is the entire premise of what you and Renato argue. Rather, Kenyans are just ordinary distance runners who have been able to get away with cheating for far too long. Cheating that has led to the complete marginalization of the sport I love in most of the world. The Kenyan distance tradition is one of corruption. It’s a shame they are only now actually being punished for it.

You can continue to spam the board with your shotgun splatter of cherry-picked data. You can continue your crusade to overwhelm any criticism of Kenya or Renato with endless posts (seriously, do you not have a job?). And you can continue to deflect each and every time a slew of Kenyans tests positive. But none of that will change the truth that everyone is now learning about Kenya. You are convincing no one here.

rekrunner wrote:

OED wrote:

Wow! Renato claims he knew something way back in 2012! You and Renato (assuming you are actually different people - the hours you spending here defending him every day suggests otherwise), continually fail to think through your excuses. You both seem to claim that doping in Kenya is only a recent thing. That for the 35+ years that Kenyans weren’t subject to out of competition testing they and their saintly European coaches, agents, and “nutritionists,” weren’t doping. Instead, it was only recently that this became an issue, and it only really became a problem AFTER AK announced and began testing. Doping only began after testing was implemented? That is absurd! Nothing changed in 2012. And the only thing that has changed since then is that testing has been implemented for once. Your continued reliance on the lack of “data” when no testing was occurring is laughable. The data of the last eight years, however, is overwhelming.

You continue to mistake any criticism of Kenya as some sort of effort to single them out or treat them differently than other nations. Of course if EPO works for Kenyans it will work for non-Kenyans. But the reverse is also true, which neither you nor Renato seems to grasp. I know doping has been going on in other parts of the world, although your choice to compare Kenya to Russia, China, and Italy (wait, don’t we know someone from there) is certainly puzzling. I know far better than you just how rampant it is in the United States and for how long. But we aren’t talking about those countries, all of whom have rightly been castigated for doping for years. We are talking about Kenya. A country that for years has placed itself on a pedestal as the ultimate in distance running. A country whose athletes claim they were simply that much better than everyone else because of some hocum about proud Masai warrior traditions and other nonsense. My point is to expose Kenya for what it is: a corrupt nation whose running prowess was, is, and apparently will continue to be, based on drugs. Kenyans are not superhuman. They are not harder workers or more genetically gifted than athletes from other parts of the world. Kenya is not special, which is the entire premise of what you and Renato argue. Rather, Kenyans are just ordinary distance runners who have been able to get away with cheating for far too long. Cheating that has led to the complete marginalization of the sport I love in most of the world. The Kenyan distance tradition is one of corruption. It’s a shame they are only now actually being punished for it.

You can continue to spam the board with your shotgun splatter of cherry-picked data. You can continue your crusade to overwhelm any criticism of Kenya or Renato with endless posts (seriously, do you not have a job?). And you can continue to deflect each and every time a slew of Kenyans tests positive. But none of that will change the truth that everyone is now learning about Kenya. You are convincing no one here.

I thought you were just "counteracting Renato’s claim that he never said EPO doesn’t work".

You claimed he denied rampant doping, when he didn't.

You claimed the rest of the world was subject to legitimate testing, which also wasn't quite true 30 years ago.

You say you know all these things far more than I realize, but you keep giving demonstrably wrong information.

My idea about Kenyan blood doping (because we were talking about EPO) before 2012 comes partly from the evidence of IAAF blood data collected between 2001-2012, when the Sunday Time reported Kenyan (and Ethiopian) blood doping "suspicion" was below the world average, based on off-score calculations by two blood passport researchers. Before 2000, everyone worldwide could dope with EPO with impunity. After 2012, the Kenyan doping everyone is now learning about involves a wide assortment of many drugs relatively unproven in distance running, rather than EPO and ABP.

You say Kenya is not special, but back in the 1980s, both Kenya and Ethiopia dominated the world in Cross Country, with an unmatched depth of top talent, which predates the arrival of most European coaches. Brother Colm arrived in Iten in 1976.

You say Kenya's running prowess was based on drugs, but if it were that easy, some rogue nations or groups or athletes would have been able to replicate that prowess while hiding their doping. (See your own arguments that athletes can and will go to great lengths to hide their doping).

Instead we see that the prowess is concentrated, not in the countries that blood-dope the most, but in the athletes originating from East African countries, like Kenya, Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea, Uganda, etc., even when these athletes emigrate to other countries that have "legitimate OOC testing", and to a much lesser extent, in athletes from North African countries of Morocco and Algeria.

OED wrote:

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

Perhaps your claimed understanding of doping history is lacking far more than you realize. The Europeans were firmly entrenched by the early 80s (1976 comes before 1980) and predated the huge jump Kenyans made on the world scene. The ability to hide doping has not always been the same. It is beyond belief that you don’t see how doping in a country without any out of competition testing makes it easier to cheat than in one where testing occurs. Yet one more truth staring you in the face that you refuse to acknowledge (or one more lie you continue to repeat?).

You keep referring to the Times investigation for support of Kenyan cleanliness but deny its accuracy with respect to the US. Convenient. Is it accurate or not? Also, just how comprehensive was the investigation? Wait, the IAAF data was only from individuals tested in competition? Well that doesn’t seem to help your argument at all. You also overlook further investigations showing how ridiculously easy it is for Kenyans to obtain EPO, especially compared to a country like the US where it is a tightly controlled substance. It is literally cheaper and easier for Kenyans to obtain EPO than individuals in Western Nations.

Every African country you cite is a country where doping controls have historically been a joke. Lumping them together like you do only further highlights that. Moreover, the majority of highly successful athletes from those regions that have emigrated to other nations have continued to live and train in their native homelands for extended periods of time. Have you ever thought why that might be? Why would they chose to go back to a dirt poor country without access to modern healthcare or even water sometime when they could live in comfort in their new homelands? Perhaps the humble, monk lifestyle isn’t the true secret of their success after all.

rekrunner wrote:

OED wrote:

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

Perhaps your claimed understanding of doping history is lacking far more than you realize. The Europeans were firmly entrenched by the early 80s (1976 comes before 1980) and predated the huge jump Kenyans made on the world scene. The ability to hide doping has not always been the same. It is beyond belief that you don’t see how doping in a country without any out of competition testing makes it easier to cheat than in one where testing occurs. Yet one more truth staring you in the face that you refuse to acknowledge (or one more lie you continue to repeat?).

You keep referring to the Times investigation for support of Kenyan cleanliness but deny its accuracy with respect to the US. Convenient. Is it accurate or not? Also, just how comprehensive was the investigation? Wait, the IAAF data was only from individuals tested in competition? Well that doesn’t seem to help your argument at all. You also overlook further investigations showing how ridiculously easy it is for Kenyans to obtain EPO, especially compared to a country like the US where it is a tightly controlled substance. It is literally cheaper and easier for Kenyans to obtain EPO than individuals in Western Nations.

Every African country you cite is a country where doping controls have historically been a joke. Lumping them together like you do only further highlights that. Moreover, the majority of highly successful athletes from those regions that have emigrated to other nations have continued to live and train in their native homelands for extended periods of time. Have you ever thought why that might be? Why would they chose to go back to a dirt poor country without access to modern healthcare or even water sometime when they could live in comfort in their new homelands? Perhaps the humble, monk lifestyle isn’t the true secret of their success after all.

Deflection? I'm simply responding to your posts which seem to be all over the place. Are you responding to what Renato claimed, to EPO works, or to Kenyan doping busts in the last 8 years?

You may be right -- maybe I am missing some facts -- many of my posts are questions, soliciting for specific facts. Many of the responses are puzzling why I simply cannot accept the conspiracies without these facts. I should simply assume the conclusion, and then concluding the assumption would be a no-brainer. Didn't you say you know more than I realize? You are saying a lot of words, but your posts are lacking in the factual substance and details you say I miss. If you want me to differentiate you from any other random LR poster, then that is on you to differentiate yourself with some of this knowledge you say I have not realized.

Besides Brother Colm, which Europeans were firmly entrenched by the early '80s in Kenya and Ethiopia? Dr. Rosa went to Kenya only in 1991. Jos Hermans discovered Geb around the same time. Which Europeans were coaching World Cross Country for Kenyan/Ethiopia in the 1980s?

Again, for all this talk of a lack of OOC testing for 35+ years, allegedly only in Kenya and now these other East African countries, while there was never a lack anywhere in the rest of the world in the remaining 200+ countries, the fact remains that there was no OOC testing for EPO world wide until 2002, and there was no IC testing before 2000. Lack of OOC testing in Kenya is not an excuse when it is lacking worldwide. There was simply no need to hide EPO or blood doping because it was completely undetectable. You also place far too much faith in the power of OOC testing, when you are not contradicting yourself showing how athletes went to great lengths to hide doping despite OOC testing. As late as 2019, 135 out of 173 ADRVs (78%) in athletics were from in-competion urine tests, while only 37 were from OOC urine tests. Lack of OOC testing is simply not a valid excuse for 80% of the Kenyans.

The comprehensive IAAF blood data from 5000 athletes in 208 countries between 2001-2012 shows all of us that many other countries were more suspicious than Kenya (so much for "legitimate" OOC testing). But none of these athletes from these blood doping countries produced comparable results.

Speaking of "one more lie", when did I "deny its accuracy with respect to the US"? What I said was that the Sunday Times didn't even report any USA figures. There was no figure, accurate or otherwise, to deny. And you are also sorely mistaken -- I don't ever deny countries around the world, including the USA, are doping, and have been doping and hiding it since as far back as the '80s, if not earlier. Like everyone else, I assume doping is rampant and widespread and prevelant worldwide, and that testing is not catching all of the dopers. My consistent point is that the rest of the world were not getting much better results during the "EPO era" in return for their doping. If doping is not producing the predicted results in all these other countries, why should I believe doping is the reason for the better results for the East Africans? You yourself told me that it works both ways. I understood that already -- did you? Again it is the lack of specific and subtantial details that are unable to put my doubts to rest.

How easy is it to get EPO in countries like the USA? Christian Hesch told me he just made trips to Mexico to get his stock. Martin Fagan was living in Flagstaff when he ordered it online. He says he ordered it from a European website, and it came from Taiwan. Investigative reporters like Bryan Fogel (Icarus) somehow managed to get prescriptions for a whole suite of drugs for a plan orchestrated by Rodchenkov. I just googled Armstrong and found the whole USA team was doping. I don't believe access to drugs was ever a barrier when there was a will.

For someone who claims to know a lot more than I realize, your arguments should depend more on what you say you know, rather than making a series of conspiracy claims wanting supporting facts, while accusing me of not knowing these facts.

Renato Canova wrote:

I laugh reading these stupidities.

First : I never said EPO doesn't work for Kenyans. Instead, I said "EPO doesn't work with every athlete (including white caucasic) having proper training in altitude. And for me proper training means a volume not inferior of 180/200 km per week, at specific intensity (proper training that physiologists and expert of antidoping don't know, so don't know the effect of training).

Second : Isaiah Kiplagat NEVER declared war on doping. Before London Olympics, I started to see something strange (people not involved in athletics present in the domestic road races proposing "supplements" for enhancing the performances), together with Patrick Sang, and went to meet Isaiah for explaining the problem. He told me "mzungu, this is our problem, not your", and didn't move for about two years, trying to understand how to face the situation.

Third : I went China because, during a course lasting 3 weeks in Beijing as lecturer of IAAF, the Chinese Federation asked me to become the responsible for middle and long distances, swith the specific task to design a different organization in the Country.

Fourth : Also during the period in China, I had a specific authorization from David Okeyo and Isaiah Kiplagat for continuing coaching in Kenya, with a document inviting the various athletic responsibles to collaborate with me, under technical and organizative point of view, because always my role was to try to improve in these two situation (and I continue to go Kenya for coaching athletes and creating new coaches, despite the fact I'm almost 80).

There is really somebody who doesn't have anything to do, if in 2024 discover a fake news of 11 years before... where it's written I still am in China (my contract terminated 9 years ago...)

rekrunner wrote:

HRE wrote:

The changes Lombard made in his training were not the sorts of things that probably most of us would believe lead to the scale of improvement he made, not by a long.

At this point, I cannot help what "probably most of us would believe". But for you, it's the scale that makes you believe it's EPO and not training? When most scientists say "can be up to 3%" improvement, in a kind of best case scenario, why would the scales of "most of us" go up to 10% gains from EPO? When Ron Clarke ran 27:39 in 1965, and David Bedford ran 27:30 in 1973, and Dick Quax ran 27:42 in 1977, would "most of us believe" that EPO could have had one of these runners running 24:xx times? Chris Solinsky was the first non-African to break 27 minutes in 2010, 20 years into the EPO era, and no one has yet broken 26 minutes. And people are still asking me to consider "what about the curious case of Lombard?"

Recall the case of site co-founder Weldon Johnson. He went from 30:14 after a 5th year at University, to 28:06, on the verge of his 30th birthday, after changing his coach, his training, and moving to Flagstaff. How far does a 6.7% improvement after University tip your scale?

Didn't you yourself improve with Lydiard influenced training, both physically and psychologically? Do you also believe EPO could have delivered another three minute improvement for someone like you?

It is much easier for me to believe that Lombard simply didn't realize his true potential due to wrong training and mental self-doubt.