Firstly, comparing times more than 60 years apart is ridiculous.
Secondly, you are wrong when you say Elliott was not unbeaten over 1500/mile in his career. He is the only champion who NEVER lost over his speciality distance in his senior career. Jakob cannot match that.
Thirdly, Elliott held the world records over the 1500 and the mile. Jakob never has. Elliott also broke the previous records by huge margins.
He never ran in the European champs as he lived in Australia but he was the Empire Games champion over the 880/mile when those Games were the only other global competition; the European championships were and are a regional competition.
At their best, Jakob cannot match Elliott's unparalleled domination over their same speciality distance. Jakob is not in the running for GOAT.
Your criteria for greatness would also probably put Allyson Felix ahead of Jakob.
As said, Eliott was not unbeaten in 1500m/Mile competitions.
I have not said I would put Ingebrigtsen ahead of Elliott.
So, for you the Empire Games are still a global competition? Armdumb close to his best.
Elliott did not run the Europeans? Great observation, Dumb. How many times did Ingebrigtsen run at the Commonwealth Games?
Again, not a single word to Ingebrigtsen's achievements. 3 GLOBAL (comprehenda?) Golds at 1500m/5000m, world records at 2000m/2 Miles, great times at 1500m (4th fastest),1 Mile (3rd fastest), 3000m (3rd fastest), 5000m (12th fastest at the time). Good times in the 800m and the steeple.
Relatively speaking, Ingebrigtsen's PBs are definitely worth more than Elliott's at the time.
Anybody who has Elliott undoubtedly ahead is a clown.
Your English isn't the best. To say someone is "not unbeaten" is to say they were beaten. Elliott wasn't. Jakob has been - and, crucially, in WC finals over his specialty distance.
You were apparently born this century. In the middle of the last century the Empire Games were a global competition, as they included nations from all around the world. In Elliott's era, that included most of the best md runners of his time. The European championships were a regional competition. The only world championships in Elliott's era were the Olympic Games. But since you include WC medals, Jakob has yet to win over the 1500.
Elliott not only matches Ingebrigtsen's Olympic gold over the 1500, he accomplished it with a wr. Jakob hasn't. In fact Jakob has no outdoor world records over his specialty distance.
The other distances Jakob has competed over are irrelevant. This isn't a discussion about who had the best range or was more versatile but who is the best of the best in their main event. It is like comparing an 800 runner with Rudisha who also competes over the 1500 or 2 miles but doesn't match Rudisha's achievements in his specialty event. Rudisha is still the best 800 runner, regardless of anyone else's range. And he would still be arguably the best when and if his record is eventually beaten.
Elliott, who was undefeated in his career, shows he is far ahead of Jakob in the argument of who is the best 1500/miler in history. Jakob isn't yet in that race.
Reread the thread title yourself. It is not stated that he want be the goat in the 1500m.
Jakob is reportedly talking about being the goat over multiple distances, at least including the 10000m AND the HM. The latter he considers to be his best distance at this moment!
I agree Elliott was a great runner but he retired early and to say he is a better OVERALL runner than Jakob is wrong.
Reread the thread title yourself. It is not stated that he want be the goat in the 1500m.
Jakob is reportedly talking about being the goat over multiple distances, at least including the 10000m AND the HM. The latter he considers to be his best distance at this moment!
I agree Elliott was a great runner but he retired early and to say he is a better OVERALL runner than Jakob is wrong.
So the goal posts are shifting. I doubt Jakob sees the GOAT as being the consolation prize for not being the best at his main distance in history.
Elliott retired at 22 and I responded to a post that suggested no one had a better cv at 22 than Jakob. Elliott did - on numerous counts, as I said.
I don't think the GOAT is defined as the runner with the best range in history but the best at a specialty (or their specialty) - whether it's the 100m or the marathon, because no one can be the best in every event; rarely more than two. There is a GOAT at every distance (Rudisha agrees with me). Jakob is as yet nowhere near being the historical best in any of his events. Being pretty good at a bunch of them doesn't make him the GOAT. He's still well behind Bekele there.
On how winning gold in Tokyo was hollow but he quickly got back to work as he wants to be the GOAT
“(It would take) Five or six [Olympic] gold medals, to be better than all the different runners in all the disciplines. That would be the end of the discussion. And the goal is never to have the discussion again.”
Paavo Johannes Nurmi was a Finnish middle-distance and long-distance runner. He was called the "Flying Finn" or the "Phantom Finn", as he dominated distance running in the 1920s. Nurmi set 22 official world records at distances between 1,500 metres and 20 kilometres, and won nine gold and three silver medals in his 12 events in the Summer Olympic Games. At his peak, Nurmi was undefeated for 121 races at distances from 800 m upwards. Throughout his 14-year career, he remained unbeaten in cross country events and the 10,000 meters.
OK, in what world is Ingebrigtsen going to build up a resume that even gets him into a conversation about being the GOAT, let alone puts the conversation to bed?
As far as records set- distance runners from the past had the chance to set records at English and Metric distances.
Reread the thread title yourself. It is not stated that he want be the goat in the 1500m.
Jakob is reportedly talking about being the goat over multiple distances, at least including the 10000m AND the HM. The latter he considers to be his best distance at this moment!
I agree Elliott was a great runner but he retired early and to say he is a better OVERALL runner than Jakob is wrong.
So the goal posts are shifting. I doubt Jakob sees the GOAT as being the consolation prize for not being the best at his main distance in history.
Elliott retired at 22 and I responded to a post that suggested no one had a better cv at 22 than Jakob. Elliott did - on numerous counts, as I said.
I don't think the GOAT is defined as the runner with the best range in history but the best at a specialty (or their specialty) - whether it's the 100m or the marathon, because no one can be the best in every event; rarely more than two. There is a GOAT at every distance (Rudisha agrees with me). Jakob is as yet nowhere near being the historical best in any of his events. Being pretty good at a bunch of them doesn't make him the GOAT. He's still well behind Bekele there.
No one is shifting the goal posts.
I haven´t read the whole article but the headings is:
" Jakob Ingebrigtsen: From five-minute ‘beer mile’ to a 10k in his shed The straight-talking Norwegian on his rival Josh Kerr, becoming the best of all time and why the 1,500m — in which he’s the Olympic champion — is his worst event"
It is quite obviously that Jakob isn´t just thinking about the 1500m.
I wrote that Jakob is the best 22 year old 1500m to 5000m runner and that none of the greats of the past - to my knowledge - had a better CV at that age. And I think you responded to that.
By the way I think that Jakob - barring serious injury and illness - have a good chance to be the best 1500m runner ever (when it comes to WR and international wins). Time will tell.
Elliott retired after the Rome Olympics which MIGHT be an advantage for his reputation since another of your heroes Peter Snell (he is also one of my foremost running heroes; the very first as a matter of fact) soon took over the scene. We will never know if Elliott could have beaten Snell in Tokyo or in some of the Common Wealth races at the time.
Jakob isn´t just "pretty good" in a bunch of events. He was probably already in 2023 the best ever combined over the 1500m, 3000m and 5000m assuming he AT LEAST could have run 7:20 in the 3000m and 12:35 in the 5000m judging from his 7:54 in the 2 miles.
And he talks at length about how his best event is 13.1, then 10k, then 5k and then 1500.
He talks at lengths about how his best events 13.1? What even is that? Do you mean the half-marathon? I bet you a Norwegian would never talk about 13.1 miles.
As said, Eliott was not unbeaten in 1500m/Mile competitions.
I have not said I would put Ingebrigtsen ahead of Elliott.
So, for you the Empire Games are still a global competition? Armdumb close to his best.
Elliott did not run the Europeans? Great observation, Dumb. How many times did Ingebrigtsen run at the Commonwealth Games?
Again, not a single word to Ingebrigtsen's achievements. 3 GLOBAL (comprehenda?) Golds at 1500m/5000m, world records at 2000m/2 Miles, great times at 1500m (4th fastest),1 Mile (3rd fastest), 3000m (3rd fastest), 5000m (12th fastest at the time). Good times in the 800m and the steeple.
Relatively speaking, Ingebrigtsen's PBs are definitely worth more than Elliott's at the time.
Anybody who has Elliott undoubtedly ahead is a clown.
Your English isn't the best. To say someone is "not unbeaten" is to say they were beaten. Elliott wasn't. Jakob has been - and, crucially, in WC finals over his specialty distance.
You were apparently born this century. In the middle of the last century the Empire Games were a global competition, as they included nations from all around the world. In Elliott's era, that included most of the best md runners of his time. The European championships were a regional competition. The only world championships in Elliott's era were the Olympic Games. But since you include WC medals, Jakob has yet to win over the 1500.
Elliott not only matches Ingebrigtsen's Olympic gold over the 1500, he accomplished it with a wr. Jakob hasn't. In fact Jakob has no outdoor world records over his specialty distance.
The other distances Jakob has competed over are irrelevant. This isn't a discussion about who had the best range or was more versatile but who is the best of the best in their main event. It is like comparing an 800 runner with Rudisha who also competes over the 1500 or 2 miles but doesn't match Rudisha's achievements in his specialty event. Rudisha is still the best 800 runner, regardless of anyone else's range. And he would still be arguably the best when and if his record is eventually beaten.
Elliott, who was undefeated in his career, shows he is far ahead of Jakob in the argument of who is the best 1500/miler in history. Jakob isn't yet in that race.
My English is good enough to "understand" your "reasoning".
Elliot was beaten before he was a world class runner - he was not unbeaten.
I was not born in this century. I give you two more shots to guess the century I was born in. Small hint, it was not the 19th century.
All distances are relevant. Someone claimed Ingebrigtsen has the best cv for an 22 year old distance runner. You said that's wrong, Elliott has the best cv. It's not about any specific distance, do you understand this?
Do you still say it's undisputed that Elliott has a better cv for any 22 years old distance runner?
You can argue for Elliott because of his WR in an Olympic final and because he hasn't lost over 1500m/Mile in his senior career (which was very short). There are also very good arguments for Ingebrigtsen because of all his achievements. 16 Golds at the Europeans...
Empire Games - global champs, Europeans - regional champs - dumb, dumber, dumbstrong.
So the goal posts are shifting. I doubt Jakob sees the GOAT as being the consolation prize for not being the best at his main distance in history.
Elliott retired at 22 and I responded to a post that suggested no one had a better cv at 22 than Jakob. Elliott did - on numerous counts, as I said.
I don't think the GOAT is defined as the runner with the best range in history but the best at a specialty (or their specialty) - whether it's the 100m or the marathon, because no one can be the best in every event; rarely more than two. There is a GOAT at every distance (Rudisha agrees with me). Jakob is as yet nowhere near being the historical best in any of his events. Being pretty good at a bunch of them doesn't make him the GOAT. He's still well behind Bekele there.
No one is shifting the goal posts.
I haven´t read the whole article but the headings is:
" Jakob Ingebrigtsen: From five-minute ‘beer mile’ to a 10k in his shed The straight-talking Norwegian on his rival Josh Kerr, becoming the best of all time and why the 1,500m — in which he’s the Olympic champion — is his worst event"
It is quite obviously that Jakob isn´t just thinking about the 1500m.
I wrote that Jakob is the best 22 year old 1500m to 5000m runner and that none of the greats of the past - to my knowledge - had a better CV at that age. And I think you responded to that.
By the way I think that Jakob - barring serious injury and illness - have a good chance to be the best 1500m runner ever (when it comes to WR and international wins). Time will tell.
Elliott retired after the Rome Olympics which MIGHT be an advantage for his reputation since another of your heroes Peter Snell (he is also one of my foremost running heroes; the very first as a matter of fact) soon took over the scene. We will never know if Elliott could have beaten Snell in Tokyo or in some of the Common Wealth races at the time.
Jakob isn´t just "pretty good" in a bunch of events. He was probably already in 2023 the best ever combined over the 1500m, 3000m and 5000m assuming he AT LEAST could have run 7:20 in the 3000m and 12:35 in the 5000m judging from his 7:54 in the 2 miles.
Jakob isn't the best ever in ANY one of the events he competes in. That ends the GOAT debate for now - unless his record in any of those events becomes superior to anyone else in history. The GOAT isn't an athlete who is merely good - but not the best - over a range of events. This isn't the running equivalent of the decathlon.
I chose Elliott as an example of someone who is ahead of Jakob in contention for a md GOAT but you mention Snell - I would put him ahead, too, and Coe and El G. Jakob is at best a work in progress. He is a long way from what he says he aspires to be.
Your English isn't the best. To say someone is "not unbeaten" is to say they were beaten. Elliott wasn't. Jakob has been - and, crucially, in WC finals over his specialty distance.
You were apparently born this century. In the middle of the last century the Empire Games were a global competition, as they included nations from all around the world. In Elliott's era, that included most of the best md runners of his time. The European championships were a regional competition. The only world championships in Elliott's era were the Olympic Games. But since you include WC medals, Jakob has yet to win over the 1500.
Elliott not only matches Ingebrigtsen's Olympic gold over the 1500, he accomplished it with a wr. Jakob hasn't. In fact Jakob has no outdoor world records over his specialty distance.
The other distances Jakob has competed over are irrelevant. This isn't a discussion about who had the best range or was more versatile but who is the best of the best in their main event. It is like comparing an 800 runner with Rudisha who also competes over the 1500 or 2 miles but doesn't match Rudisha's achievements in his specialty event. Rudisha is still the best 800 runner, regardless of anyone else's range. And he would still be arguably the best when and if his record is eventually beaten.
Elliott, who was undefeated in his career, shows he is far ahead of Jakob in the argument of who is the best 1500/miler in history. Jakob isn't yet in that race.
My English is good enough to "understand" your "reasoning".
Elliot was beaten before he was a world class runner - he was not unbeaten.
I was not born in this century. I give you two more shots to guess the century I was born in. Small hint, it was not the 19th century.
All distances are relevant. Someone claimed Ingebrigtsen has the best cv for an 22 year old distance runner. You said that's wrong, Elliott has the best cv. It's not about any specific distance, do you understand this?
Do you still say it's undisputed that Elliott has a better cv for any 22 years old distance runner?
You can argue for Elliott because of his WR in an Olympic final and because he hasn't lost over 1500m/Mile in his senior career (which was very short). There are also very good arguments for Ingebrigtsen because of all his achievements. 16 Golds at the Europeans...
Empire Games - global champs, Europeans - regional champs - dumb, dumber, dumbstrong.
The regional European champs leads here 9:1 against the global Empire games. You can check the missing ones as well as the women's events.
You are wrong again. Elliott never lost a mile in his senior career. Jakob has often been beaten and in particular been beaten 3 times for world titles. He has never won a WC title in his specialty event. Elliott never lost a championship race or any race over the 1500/mile in his senior career. He held the wr's in those events - and by an unprecedented margin. Jakob does not hold the world mark in either event - which is supposed to be his best event.
The rest of your comment is as usual irrelevant flannel. You simply do not understand what the best runner in any given event is. Bolt or Rudisha could tell you. If you aren't the best at any event you cannot be the "Greatest Of All Time".
220y was the longest women's event at the famous Empire Games...
What a stupid and irrelevant comment. We are discussing a md runner - male. The Games included competitors from all around the globe because of their membership of what had been the British Empire.
My English is good enough to "understand" your "reasoning".
Elliot was beaten before he was a world class runner - he was not unbeaten.
I was not born in this century. I give you two more shots to guess the century I was born in. Small hint, it was not the 19th century.
All distances are relevant. Someone claimed Ingebrigtsen has the best cv for an 22 year old distance runner. You said that's wrong, Elliott has the best cv. It's not about any specific distance, do you understand this?
Do you still say it's undisputed that Elliott has a better cv for any 22 years old distance runner?
You can argue for Elliott because of his WR in an Olympic final and because he hasn't lost over 1500m/Mile in his senior career (which was very short). There are also very good arguments for Ingebrigtsen because of all his achievements. 16 Golds at the Europeans...
Empire Games - global champs, Europeans - regional champs - dumb, dumber, dumbstrong.
The regional European champs leads here 9:1 against the global Empire games. You can check the missing ones as well as the women's events.
You are wrong again. Elliott never lost a mile in his senior career. Jakob has often been beaten and in particular been beaten 3 times for world titles. He has never won a WC title in his specialty event. Elliott never lost a championship race or any race over the 1500/mile in his senior career. He held the wr's in those events - and by an unprecedented margin. Jakob does not hold the world mark in either event - which is supposed to be his best event.
The rest of your comment is as usual irrelevant flannel. You simply do not understand what the best runner in any given event is. Bolt or Rudisha could tell you. If you aren't the best at any event you cannot be the "Greatest Of All Time".
I'm not wrong. Since you are not able to read and to understand what was written, any discussion with you is worthless. Elliott has lost as a junior, he was not unbeaten. As a senior he has won all of his 1500m/Mile races during his very short career.
1500m is not Ingebrigtsens event. But that's completely irrelevant. Ingebrigtsen is not the best 1500m runner in history. Ingebrigtsen is not the best 5000m runner in history. Nobody has said this and nobody - as far as I know - argues for this.
The point was: he has the best cv in distance running for any 22 years old. Do you understand now? It was explained now at least five times to you - a number probably way too low for you to understand.
You claimed his cv at his age is behind Elliott's at the same age. You can argue for this - when doing it while ignoring again and again what Ingebrigtsen has achieved, you just tell the forum so much about yourself. Just continue.
For me, Ingebrigtsen has the better cv at age 22 tan Elliott - but I can see that some might argue for Elliott.
How do you explain a 10.8 seconds better Mile PB for Ingebrigtsen compared to Elliott? Shoes and tracks as well as training have had almost no improvement during the last 65 years. Was he running downhill the full Mile?
220y was the longest women's event at the famous Empire Games...
What a stupid and irrelevant comment. We are discussing a md runner - male. The Games included competitors from all around the globe because of their membership of what had been the British Empire.
Absolutely, from all around the world.
From Fiji. From Ghana. From Malaya. From Borneo. Even from the European mainland: Gibraltar. Truly global champs.
Unfortunately a few nations (mainly irrelevant ones) were missing: USA, Soviet Union, East Germany, West Germany, Italy, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Brazil, China, Japan, Ireland, Algeria and many many more. But - hey - Jersey was present. Truly global.
How do you explain a 10.8 seconds better Mile PB for Ingebrigtsen compared to Elliott? Shoes and tracks as well as training have had almost no improvement during the last 65 years. Was he running downhill the full Mile?
The statement that shoes (and tracks and training) "had almost no improvement during the last 65 years" is so ludicrous that it automatically invalidates whatever else you can say.
However, even if they were the same (which they clearly aren't) do you know what else improved in the past 65 years? Doping.