Let me ask you this again, since you refused to answer the last time.
Is there anything trans students should be allowed to do that is also valued by cis students? Or should they be only allowed to do things that have no value for cis students?
I would say they should be given full and equal access to 99% of the things we all value. The 1% are things where biological women are innately at a disadvantage (such as pull-up competitions, boxing matches, cycling, swimming, etc.).
I support trans rights (and have always considered myself a liberal on this issue) but they should NOT be allow into women's athletic competitions for obvious reasons that reasonable people see and understand.
So what is the biological advantage of this HS student (and not trans athletes in general)?
That her training is never interrupted by periods? But that's also true about people with CAIS. I am pretty much sure there are HS students with CAIS competing in girls' sports somewhere in the US. Do you also want them banned from girls' sports? How do we identify them? With mandatory chromosome tests?
Does she have height advantage? We will never know how much taller she might have been without puberty blockers and cross hormone. But that award ceremony photo indicates she is not taller than her competitors.
We also don't know whether puberty blockers and cross hormone have any negative effect on her performance. Lower bone density is a known side effect of puberty blockers. Does it have no effect on athletic performance? What I find really interesting is that we hear so much about how harmful both puberty blockers and cross hormone are to the health of transgender youth. But when it comes to athletic performance, the default assumption is that they have no negative effect at all.
I have a serious problem with the argument that HS sports should be less inclusive than Olympics. If we are to take HS sports as more serious competition than Olympics, then we should be starting out of competition drug tests for HS athletes. If we don't go that route, then someone eligible to compete in the Olympics should be allowed in HS sports.
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We also don't know whether puberty blockers and cross hormone have any negative effect on her performance.
Hmm I'm seeing progress here. Previously you used to claim that pubertal hormone suppression magically and very precisely equalised any advantage that might have existed between boys and girls. Now that you can't seem to logically wiggle out of the 'why do all the pre-puberty world records belong to males then?' inconvenient truth, you seem to have softened to 'we don't know' how negative the effects of these puberty blockers and hormones are, and so it might (albeit still magically) wind up being somewhat 'fair'. Unfortunately, you're using the same flawed logic that Pistorius sympathisers used in his competition days (i.e. 'no we can't fully quantify the advantage given by the blades, but whatever it is it might be less than the disadvantages caused by needing them in the first place'). So I'd say you're still wrong, but less wrong than you used to be, good job.
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JAHJ's comments on another related thread reveal that of the reason he holds the position he does is that he thinks there's solid and ample scientific evidence behind the loopholes in the current polices of World Athletics and World Aquatics which allow trans-identified males to seek eligibility for competition in the female category if they can document that since turning 12, or reaching Tanner Stage 2, their testosterone levels have consistently remained below 2.5 nmol/L due to chemically castrating drugs and/or castration surgery.
Unfortunately, though, these loopholes are not grounded in science. They're based on several assumptions that are either unproven or false.
The first of these is the premise that there are no physical differences between the sexes that matter enough to give males a significant advantage over females in sports prior to puberty of adolescence.
This presentation by exercise physiologist Greg Brown, PhD shows why that particular premise is false - and why advocates of fairness for female athletes are lobbying World Atheltics' and World Aquatics' to reconsider the loopholes.
Dr. Greg Brown delves into the complexities of pre-puberty athletic performance at the 2023 International Women’s Sports Summit. Learn about the physiologica...
You'll be shocked to find out that this also happened under the prior administration.
Yes, during the time that DJ Trump was POTUS, male athletes attending schools in numerous states in the US used gender identity claims to get the chance to compete in girls' and women's school sports - and several of the male athletes who did so beat the pants off the female athletes they competed against to win a number of meets and championships at the local, state, regional and even national level.
However, during the time Trump was in office in Washington, some of the female athletes who were forced to compete against males fought back and scored a major victory with the US Department of Education, which under Trump was headed by Betsy DeVos, a supporter of girls' and women's right to female-only sports and spaces.
In 2020, the US Department of Education's Office of Civil Rights ruled that several individual high schools and statewide school sports authorities in Connecticut had violated Title IX and the civil rights of female student-athletes by making them compete against males in Connecticut girls' HS track.
When Joe Biden became POTUS in early 2021, his adminstration immediately reversed this ruling. Moreover, right after taking office, Biden issued executive orders from the White House making good on his campaign promise that his administration would interpret Title IX and other US laws and policies pertaining to sex discrimination, sex segregation and sex specific programs so that individuals' "gender identity" and "gender expression" would be given as much weight, or more weight, as their actual sex.
Moreover, the new US Secretary of Education that Biden chose when he became POTUS was/is none other than Miguel Cardona, the former head of education in Connecticut, the very state which had gotten into hot water with the previous admin's Dept of Education for allowing boys to compete in girls' HS sports.
One of the main reasons Biden chose Miguel Cardona to be his head of the US Dept of Education is that both men are longtime staunch supporters of the view that male students who claim to have an opposite-sex gender identity should be allowed to participate in girls' and women's school sports and to use school facilites meant for female students such as girls/women's locker rooms, restrooms, showers.
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Riley Gaines, a former competitive swimmer, champions the preservation of women's sports and single-sex spaces by advocating for the exclusion of biological ...
One of the main reasons Biden chose Miguel Cardona to be his head of the US Dept of Education is that both men are longtime staunch supporters of the view that male students who claim to have an opposite-sex gender identity should be allowed to participate in girls' and women's school sports and to use school facilites meant for female students such as girls/women's locker rooms, restrooms, showers.
If you seriously believe this, you need counseling. Unlike you, Biden and Cardona have so many other things to worry about.
Males receive their first dose of testosterone in the womb.
“There is also an early postnatal surge of testosterone in male infants, called “mini-puberty”, with testosterone peaking at about 1–3 months of age, and declining to baseline by about 6 months of age” (Winter et al., 1976).
Boys already have a physical advantage over girls when they are first born, being on average heavier and taller.
“In the United States, the average baby weighs just over 7 pounds at birth. Girls (at 7 pounds, 1 ounce/3.2 kg) are a bit smaller than boys (at 7 pounds 8 ounces/3.4 kg) on arrival. The average newborn is 19 1/2 inches (49.5 cm) long, with girls measuring 19.4 inches (49.2 cm) and boys measuring 19.7 inches (49.9 cm).”
Minipuberty consists of activation of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal (HPG) axis during the neonatal period, resulting in high gonadotropin and sex steroid levels, and occurs mainly in the first 3–6 months of life in both...
I would say they should be given full and equal access to 99% of the things we all value. The 1% are things where biological women are innately at a disadvantage (such as pull-up competitions, boxing matches, cycling, swimming, etc.).
I support trans rights (and have always considered myself a liberal on this issue) but they should NOT be allow into women's athletic competitions for obvious reasons that reasonable people see and understand.
So what is the biological advantage of this HS student (and not trans athletes in general)?
What is the biological advantage a male has over a female when it comes to high jumping in your teen years?
One of the main reasons Biden chose Miguel Cardona to be his head of the US Dept of Education is that both men are longtime staunch supporters of the view that male students who claim to have an opposite-sex gender identity should be allowed to participate in girls' and women's school sports and to use school facilites meant for female students such as girls/women's locker rooms, restrooms, showers.
If you seriously believe this, you need counseling. Unlike you, Biden and Cardona have so many other things to worry about.
During his Senate confirmation hearings for US Secretary of Education in early 2021, Miguel Cardona tried to downplay his support for males competing in girls' and women's school sports. Cardona's views on "trans rights" as they pertain to school sports were the one area that got him the most pushback from Republican Senators such as rightwing firebrand Rand Paul, who asked:
"So you don’t have a problem then with boys running in the girls track meet, swimming meets, you name it? You’re okay with boys competing with girls? A lot of us think that’s bizarre, not very fair… You’re going to run the Department of Education, you’ve got no problem with it — that concerns me. And I think it’s this kind of thing is going to lead to really just the vast majority of America just wondering who are these people that think it’s okay, from what planet are you from?”
Connecticut Education Commissioner Miguel Cardona -- President Joe Biden's pick to become U.S. education secretary -- received bipartisan support during his senate confirmation hearing Wednesday, although divisions over trans...
Since taking the helm at the Dept of Ed, Cardona has been every open about his view that males should be allowed compete in girls' and women's school sports when discussing the topic with the press. ESPN report from June 7, 2021:
U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona told ESPN that transgender girls have a "right to compete" and suggested that the Biden administration will step in to protect those students' civil rights, as multiple states enact legislation banning transgender athletes from competing in girls' and women's sports.
Cardona was the commissioner of education in Connecticut prior to joining President Joe Biden's cabinet and said his experience there "strengthened my resolve" to stand behind transgender athletes.
"It's their right as a student to participate in these activities. And we know sports does more than just put ribbons on the first-, second- and third-place winner," he said. "We know that it provides opportunities for students to become a part of a team, to learn a lot about themselves, to set goals and reach them and to challenge themselves. Athletics provides that in our K-12 systems and in our colleges, and all students deserve an opportunity to engage in that."
U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona told ESPN that transgender girls have a "right to compete" as multiple states consider banning transgender athletes from women's and girls' sports.
‘We’re not going to stand by idly,’ Cardona says amid growing transgender athlete bans
Iowa Gov. Kim Reynolds last week signed a law that will ban transgender girls and women from playing on school and college athletic teams aligning with their gender identity. “Only female students, based on their sex, may participate in any team, sport, or athletic event designated as being for females, women, or girls,” the new law states.
The state’s move comes after President Joe Biden and U.S. Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona made clear their support for LGBTQ+ students.
Specifically, the Biden administration swiftly reversed a decision by former Education Secretary Betsy DeVos on an Office for Civil Rights case brought against six Connecticut school districts and the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference.
“We’re going to continue to fight and defend and support and stand behind our LGBTQ and our transgender students, because for far too long they’ve been marginalized, and sadly — during the pandemic — even elected officials have marginalized them,” Cardona said Monday.
“And we’re not going to stand by idly watching that happen,” Cardona said. “We’re going to lift up their voices and make sure that they recognize that our schools are for them and that they have the same opportunity any other students have. So not only in funding, but in policy and how we use the bully pulpit.”
I would say they should be given full and equal access to 99% of the things we all value. The 1% are things where biological women are innately at a disadvantage (such as pull-up competitions, boxing matches, cycling, swimming, etc.).
I support trans rights (and have always considered myself a liberal on this issue) but they should NOT be allow into women's athletic competitions for obvious reasons that reasonable people see and understand.
I understand where you’re coming from, but it is proving impossible in the real world to slice the baloney that thin. You simply cannot tell trans people that their desires are entirely good and normal, that the world around them should change to fit their new sexual identity…but then tell them that in sports their actual sex is all that matters.
It just won’t work. The trans movement is a revolutionary movement and is not constructed to compromise. It is the equivalent of bailing water when your ship is already 6 feet under.
It is all or nothing. This is why transgender people continue to compete in the incorrect sex, and why it will continue to happen. We lack the courage or the philosophical foundation to say what is simply true: that you are the sex and gender you were born into, and no one has the power to change it, and make anyone else acknowledge it.
We will either do that, or we will see sports continue to be made into a farce.
One of the main reasons Biden chose Miguel Cardona to be his head of the US Dept of Education is that both men are longtime staunch supporters of the view that male students who claim to have an opposite-sex gender identity should be allowed to participate in girls' and women's school sports and to use school facilites meant for female students such as girls/women's locker rooms, restrooms, showers.
If you seriously believe this, you need counseling. Unlike you, Biden and Cardona have so many other things to worry about.
BTW, "you need counseling" is exactly what U Penn adminstrators told female members of the Penn women's swim team several years ago when they said it wasn't fair for Lia Thomas to be allowed to switch from racing men to competing against women - and they expressed discomfort and distress about having to share women's locker rooms with Thomas.
The school told the women that if they were angry about the injustice of being forced to race against a man in women's competition, distressed by the privacy violation of having a man watching them get dressed and undressed in women's locker rooms, and alarmed by the sight of man's genitalia exposed in spaces that are supposed to be female-only, they should get counseling from mental health professionals.
Men telling women we're crazy and need help when we dare not to buy the bollox they/you are spouting is one of the oldest, most hackneyed, most predictable moves of misogynists the world over. But have at it, mate. Such tactics just make you look pathetic. And no mattter how many names you call me, I'm not gonna sudddently STFU, roll over and do as you say.
Your posting history makes it abundantly clear you're clueless about the core issues at hand here, which are:
1) the number, nature, breadth and depth, causes and consequences of the biological differences between human males and females that give males such a big advantage in sports;
2) the fact that there's absolutely no concrete evidence - zero, zilch, nada - that putting males on GnRH analog drugs as pre-teens and pumping them full of Big Pharma estrogen makes the male advantage magically disappear.
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