I hope the coaches have a route to turn around and counter sue the accusers…
none of these parents had a problem with the program when their daughters’ names were in the paper, when they had their pictures being taken or when they were hoisting the team title on the podium…
they could’ve taken them off the team at any time
no one had a problem with the coach when he was so alert that he stopped one of his athletes from being abducted from the parking lot?
I'm not saying that all was kosher and good as I don't know, but by reading this article, it sounds like kids being really soft. I mean the XC coaches encouraged them to run every day and to not have boyfriends? Oh NO, that's horrible. /s
Having Sunday practices is a violation. They said they had practice every day except Christmas. Having kids running on stress fractures and while seriously sick. This will be the end of those coaches and that program.
There's a way around Sunday practice- it's called a Captain's Practice- no coaches present.
But in running you don't even need that. All of my better runners ran Sundays on their own.
Where I live, ALL the decent XC teams find a way around the regulations that prohibit teams from training over the summer... you know, rules that were put in place for the kids' safety by some very smart people. I have no issues whatsoever with teams doing this (and of course all the coaches are aware of it if not leading / encouraging it themselves). But, some on this thread act like the world is ending that such blatant negligence and disregard for the rules "for the safety" of the dear kids.
There was another poster a page or two back who was losing their mind about how the Saratoga coaches could have explained coached "diet" better or could have coached something else better. And, you know what, maybe so. When coaches do their thing for 40 years, there are going to be times when they don't express things totally ideally. Second, we don't even know what was said or what wasn't said! There have been a few accounts (if you choose to believe them) on this thread. Can they possibly exonerate the coaches from everything? Of course not. But, they can definitely be their experience which is likely similar to others. Or, we can go with the news article and pretend that people don't have axes to grind.
In short, unless you were there, all we really have is conjecture on the details. We can likely draw some conclusions on big-picture practices, but that's about it.
After reading this I feel compelled to offer some commentary and perspective.
Personal Background: I graduated from Saratoga in the mid 2000s and was a member of the team for cross country, indoor, and outdoor track, from 7th grade through senior year (yes, 18 seasons total*). I qualified for and competed at multiple state championships across seasons and was part of state championship teams. I can't comment on the totality of the Kranick's coaching since I was there for a small portion of it, but generally speaking the program has remain essentially unchanged from the early 90s until today.
*Note - importantly, in NYS, athletes are eligible to compete on Varsity athletics beginning in 7th grade. So for many schools, Saratoga included, junior high kids practice along side the high schoolers. This was the case for the distance program - girls started in 7th grade and it was essentially one giant team.
Truths/Myths:
Myth: The Kranicks are being sued. No - in fact, the letter is just a note alleging mistreatment, and has been sent to the state governing body. It's possible that this could manifest itself in the future as a lawsuit but right now there's no litigation.
Myth: The Kranicks give or gave performance enhancing drugs. Vehemently oppose this sentiment. At no point during my tenure was this ever even remotely contemplated. Did not hear anything related to it in the years before or after I was there. Per a previous post - the kerfuffle in the mid 90s was from a family that didn't like the program and moved to rival Shenendehowa - you can do some google searching on it but it essentially boiled down to the family being concerned with the intensity of the program and a claim that the coaches provided the athletes with B12 supplements. Unclear how pervasive this was or whether it was suggested offhand to a single athlete. My beef has always been with dumb opposing teams and coaches saying things like "oh they must be giving them something." BS! We would beat teams b/c we worked harder than them.
Truth: Saratoga kids run 7 days a week, essentially all year. This is true. Practice is held Monday through Saturday with an "optional" long run on Sunday mornings. Practices on Sundays and over the summer are provided under the auspices of a public Saratoga recreation program - which while technically is true, essentially functions as an extension of the program. Athletes who have any hope of running varsity understand that (a) attendance makes you better and (b) lack of attendance is not looked upon favorably by the coaches.
I will note though - the 7 day a week regimen is actually not as bad as it sounds. In my mind what is worse is the lack of downtime between seasons. Given that the team is so good, we'd run cross country through late November and then literally immediately transition into indoor track the Monday after our last race (Feds or now NXN). This would repeat itself after indoor season, and to a lesser extent after outdoor track before summer running started up (which, like Sunday runs is a full time committment).
Myth: Athletes are forced to run through injury. Not true. Girls would get injured in the normal course of training. The expectation was that you'd still try hard and attend practice, but not that you'd do things that would make an injury worse. With that said, I realize in retrospect that girls would be training through things they shouldn't. Not because the coaches insisted, but because they didn't provide us with enough perspective that some time off would help. See the Truth section above for between season recovery - essentially didn't exist.
Truth: Saratoga athletics program is deferential to the Kranicks. Won't overly elaborate but they've been able to establish a fairly insulated bubble in which to operate. The immense success certainly has helped but the school overall has let them operate with few restrictions.
Truth: Saratoga runners do poorly in college. Now being older and having some perspective, I realize this is true. Many of my friends got partial d1 scholarship and immediatley burned out. This is not always true, and many girls did great in college. But I think this was the exception not the norm.
Myth: Coaches hate their athletes. Totally untrue. They care deeply about each runner doing well. They've established what in their minds is a difficult and rigorous program designed to maximize each person's potential. I think they've skewed toward overtraining many athletes, but not out of any bad intention.
Overall perpsective: My best analogy is that the team is run like a high caliber college football program or maybe like boys high school hockey in Minnesota or something. This in the sense that it truly is a program - you either commit to it and love it or you're essentially on the outside looking in. Again, now with the benefit of age I realize the coaches were particularly adept at getting younger girls to buy into this mentality. None of us had the background to realize there was any other way. Of course you ran 7 days a a week. Of course you sprinted to to front every single race. Of course you won every dual meet every year. These aren't necessarily bad things - they're just a super intense way to go through high school and sports in general.
Well written. The hysterical comments by others are very snowflakey and lack an understanding of VOLUNTARY commitment by students and Voluntary commitment by parents. There is no total controlling if you have the option to walk away. There is always someone with an axe to grind and a million armchair QB's on this board who never coached anything, let alone HS distance girls in NY. Dedication takes dedication and clearly these coaches know what dedication is required and communicate it to the athletes and parents who voluntarily join and stay.
Thank you very much for answering my questions. That was very thoughtful of you.
I don't like that there isn't much individualization (and seemingly lack of communication / customization perhaps) and a lack of options. I would also be very concerned (if my child went there) about the fertile ground for cliques and "otherization" of some. Finally, the drive for everyone to excel seems a bit much to me (but maybe some allowance for some on the team to be mediocre in effort and results?).
However, I see people here act similarly by making blanket statements about good and bad and right and wrong in sport and in coaching... it can be different for different people. As I have aged, I've gotten softer on my younger children, but I am not sure if that stems more from matured perspective, old / tiredness, or sometimes both. It is not bad to encourage excellence and there are a lot of lessons that can come from that. There are fine lines that sometimes come down simply to how personalities click (or not).
If I had a child attend there, A LOT would come down to how much I trusted them and their intention for my child's well-being, and I don't think I or anyone on this thread could make any assessment without being there (or having been there). On the whole, I can understand that it may not be everyone's cup of tea (and I doubt it would be mine), but generating public outrage on this seems a bit snowflakey to me. We're now covered in snowflakes.
Thoughtful post. Thank you. Probably why a number of people gave it a thumbs down. It had no anger or false accusations or categorical statements of act based upon the writer's feelings..
tbh, it's a little strange to be on this side bc 75% of the time, I think HS coaches suck and often should be fired. But, when reading the article, the quotes seem off. The one says that they had practice "every single day of the year except Christmas". I am not sure I believe that - it sounds like an exaggeration. The way that the article depicts the girl who was made to run through injury and illness is all squirrelly, too.
So, I don't really care if the coaches get ax'd or not, and it would be unfortunate for the program to end, in my opinion. I am not buying a significant amount of what this article is selling. It sounds contrived to me. But, maybe it's not.
Do you think one makes a verb past tense by adding an apostrophe to it?
why would anyone want to coach HS girls! You just can't say anything at all or it might come off in the wrong way. Coaches have said all kinds of crazy things to me over the years and you know what? I never took it the wrong way. I just moved on with the running. Christ people are not perfect.
Is being a terrible person a prerequisite to be a top coach?
There are sooo many examples of despicable behavior amongst top distance running coaches in my lifetime it’s honestly hard to keep up. So few reach the top without controversy.
Honest answer: you've heard one side of the story. Those coaches have been around for decades and there are MANY loyal and happy athletes who have run for them. One person's view of what is too hard is another's definition about how to succeed. There's another program in New York that got the same criticism when it was at its peak.
Let me ask you this: do you think the runners who are supposedly complaining would be doing so if they had gotten scholarships to run?
And by the way, take a look at that attorney's website and see what you think.
After reading this I feel compelled to offer some commentary and perspective.
Personal Background: I graduated from Saratoga in the mid 2000s and was a member of the team for cross country, indoor, and outdoor track, from 7th grade through senior year (yes, 18 seasons total*). I qualified for and competed at multiple state championships across seasons and was part of state championship teams. I can't comment on the totality of the Kranick's coaching since I was there for a small portion of it, but generally speaking the program has remain essentially unchanged from the early 90s until today.
*Note - importantly, in NYS, athletes are eligible to compete on Varsity athletics beginning in 7th grade. So for many schools, Saratoga included, junior high kids practice along side the high schoolers. This was the case for the distance program - girls started in 7th grade and it was essentially one giant team.
Truths/Myths:
Myth: The Kranicks are being sued. No - in fact, the letter is just a note alleging mistreatment, and has been sent to the state governing body. It's possible that this could manifest itself in the future as a lawsuit but right now there's no litigation.
Myth: The Kranicks give or gave performance enhancing drugs. Vehemently oppose this sentiment. At no point during my tenure was this ever even remotely contemplated. Did not hear anything related to it in the years before or after I was there. Per a previous post - the kerfuffle in the mid 90s was from a family that didn't like the program and moved to rival Shenendehowa - you can do some google searching on it but it essentially boiled down to the family being concerned with the intensity of the program and a claim that the coaches provided the athletes with B12 supplements. Unclear how pervasive this was or whether it was suggested offhand to a single athlete. My beef has always been with dumb opposing teams and coaches saying things like "oh they must be giving them something." BS! We would beat teams b/c we worked harder than them.
Truth: Saratoga kids run 7 days a week, essentially all year. This is true. Practice is held Monday through Saturday with an "optional" long run on Sunday mornings. Practices on Sundays and over the summer are provided under the auspices of a public Saratoga recreation program - which while technically is true, essentially functions as an extension of the program. Athletes who have any hope of running varsity understand that (a) attendance makes you better and (b) lack of attendance is not looked upon favorably by the coaches.
I will note though - the 7 day a week regimen is actually not as bad as it sounds. In my mind what is worse is the lack of downtime between seasons. Given that the team is so good, we'd run cross country through late November and then literally immediately transition into indoor track the Monday after our last race (Feds or now NXN). This would repeat itself after indoor season, and to a lesser extent after outdoor track before summer running started up (which, like Sunday runs is a full time committment).
Myth: Athletes are forced to run through injury. Not true. Girls would get injured in the normal course of training. The expectation was that you'd still try hard and attend practice, but not that you'd do things that would make an injury worse. With that said, I realize in retrospect that girls would be training through things they shouldn't. Not because the coaches insisted, but because they didn't provide us with enough perspective that some time off would help. See the Truth section above for between season recovery - essentially didn't exist.
Truth: Saratoga athletics program is deferential to the Kranicks. Won't overly elaborate but they've been able to establish a fairly insulated bubble in which to operate. The immense success certainly has helped but the school overall has let them operate with few restrictions.
Truth: Saratoga runners do poorly in college. Now being older and having some perspective, I realize this is true. Many of my friends got partial d1 scholarship and immediatley burned out. This is not always true, and many girls did great in college. But I think this was the exception not the norm.
Myth: Coaches hate their athletes. Totally untrue. They care deeply about each runner doing well. They've established what in their minds is a difficult and rigorous program designed to maximize each person's potential. I think they've skewed toward overtraining many athletes, but not out of any bad intention.
Overall perpsective: My best analogy is that the team is run like a high caliber college football program or maybe like boys high school hockey in Minnesota or something. This in the sense that it truly is a program - you either commit to it and love it or you're essentially on the outside looking in. Again, now with the benefit of age I realize the coaches were particularly adept at getting younger girls to buy into this mentality. None of us had the background to realize there was any other way. Of course you ran 7 days a a week. Of course you sprinted to to front every single race. Of course you won every dual meet every year. These aren't necessarily bad things - they're just a super intense way to go through high school and sports in general.
Well written. The hysterical comments by others are very snowflakey and lack an understanding of VOLUNTARY commitment by students and Voluntary commitment by parents. There is no total controlling if you have the option to walk away. There is always someone with an axe to grind and a million armchair QB's on this board who never coached anything, let alone HS distance girls in NY. Dedication takes dedication and clearly these coaches know what dedication is required and communicate it to the athletes and parents who voluntarily join and stay.
I appreciate the alums coming on to clear things up.
I want to say something about the "voluntary" bit and this POV, and it may not pertain to Saratoga but it might to other abusive programs.
Many times, kids that young don't realize they are being abused or screwed over until they are older. Many times they are manipulated into doing things that are not good for them and want to please coach so they do it. It's not until they are older that they realize how messed up everything was.
Many times parents are complicit or they don't have the support at home, or parents don't really know any better.
I think the one thing that the State needs to do, no matter what happens from this investigation at this point is ban 7th and 8th grade girls from competing at the Varsity level.
I think the one thing that the State needs to do, no matter what happens from this investigation at this point is ban 7th and 8th grade girls from competing at the Varsity level.
I think the one thing that the State needs to do, no matter what happens from this investigation at this point is ban 7th and 8th grade girls from competing at the Varsity level.
I think the one thing that the State needs to do, no matter what happens from this investigation at this point is ban 7th and 8th grade girls from competing at the Varsity level.
Sadly, won't happen. Too many parents would complain.
I think the one thing that the State needs to do, no matter what happens from this investigation at this point is ban 7th and 8th grade girls from competing at the Varsity level.
Sadly, won't happen. Too many parents would complain.
They are banned in many States. It's not that hard.
Everything that at Saratoga coaches are being accused of is how things are done at 99% of the HS football programs across the country. It is interesting how football coaches get away with so many things that coaches in other sports get taken over the coals for and have reputations and careers ruined
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