Would be like 13:02 to 12:53 indoors 12:46 outdoors. Then 27:11 ish to 26:44. Katir cutting off MORE from his 1500 than fisher did with his 5k indoor AR lol. Wow, you really got him!
THIS is why the moderators have to delete any threads or posts on threads that accuse an athlete of doping without evidence- like a failed test.
It's not free speech to accuse people of cheating.
Here Kitty, kitty, kitty...
Katir's rebuttal commits several fallacies, including a combination of ad hominem attack, appeal to envy, and false assumptions.
Instead of addressing the actual argument or topic at hand, Katir resorted to attacking the tweet personally by implying that the poster's wife would prefer someone else over him. This is a logical fallacy because it does not provide any valid rebuttal to the argument raised.
Katir claimed that when a man sees another man who is better than him, he automatically becomes envious. This is a hasty generalisation and an attempt to manipulate emotions rather than engaging in rational discourse. Envy isn't a universal characteristic of all men; individuals vary in their reactions to others' successes.
Finally, Katir assumed that the nature of men is to envy and that being with a "winner" is always preferred over being with a "loser." These assumptions oversimplify complex human emotions and preferences. People's attractions and choices in relationships are influenced by various factors beyond superficial judgments of success or physical appearance.
Katir might be fast, but he's not very smart.
Your post is a combination of stating the obvious and a well written and coherent psychological analysis…
I could say: Katir may have written what he did with a purposely humourous touch, or a blending between being pixxed and humour… But not knowing Katir I’ll admit your analysis seems to be the most likely…
But I wonder why you choose this approach (slightly off topic)… I myself have (for now) refrained from naming posters or athletes (condescendingly), because my gut feeling tells me there is more to loose than to gain. And the same with the psychological approach (that can be somewhat belittling of people) -but it’s tempting (for me too) to go deep and personal. -Maybe if the analysis could be hidden behind some generalised construct (I feel LRC is to much of a potential pillory; too much of a “weird” public forum -hard for athletes to defend themselves / debate here)…
The guy once DM'ed me on IG after I called him a doper. He went absolutely crazy in the DM. Only someone with something to hide would take up this fight with random people, an innocent person would let it slide. Not only is he one of the most obvious dopers of our times, he is also a total tool.
There appears to be an Anglo-Saxon campaign (almost exclusively Brits and Americans) against Katir that seems founded in nothing concrete but jealousy.
Stick to defending Kenyans. You’ve got enough on your plate.
Your point about Katir running 8:41 two years before is false. He ran a 7:53 and 7:58 indoors, races he finished in first and third. The 8:41 he ran was the Spanish Club Championships race, which he run. Looking at Katir's World Athletics profile for pre-Covid reveals a lot of 1st and 2nds in races. It's not a stretch to say that with better competition combined with a lengthy training period due to COVID (something we saw with many runners, including Hobbs Kessler and Graham Blanks) that he'd be able to perform better than before. And runners hit their peak at different times. As for the 5000m, he went 3 years between races. It wasn't like he went from 13:50 to 13:08 (then 12:50) after one season or one year. 3 years is a long time and his times between then indicate he could've run faster than 13:50 in 2019 and 2020.
The World Athletics profile for him has results dating back to 2014, so I suggest checking those for accuracy.
I can use these statistics/progression within this context because we have a significant sample size. When 33 of the 37 men to run under 3min30 in the history of our species only did so after running at least a season in the 3.32's prior, then that is a very good sample set/indicator with respect to how you "progress" at this level of athletic performance (btw this is a slight correction because Daniel Komen also "only" went from 3.34.1 to 3.29.4 from 1996 to 1997 but he of course had run 7.20 for 3000m at that stage so 3.34 was probably not indicative of his actual potential). 90% of these guys - including some of the greatest runners in the history of this event (El G, Morceli, Jakob, Coe, Cram) followed this path. You simply can't sit at 3.36-40 (where honestly the majority of runners are of the same ability and usually best times are more a function of opportunity than ability) and then make this kind of jump. It's unprecedented as the significant sample size shows.
The Ingebrigtsen example isn't a good one - he ran 6 races under 3.31.7 before finally breaking 3.30. That's six races under 3.32 v one race under 3.37 (3.36.59). You want to revise that comparison?
Yes we do have a significant sample size (see automorphic’s post)… And these samples show that Katir isn’t the outlier you keep on saying he is…
Yes the Ingebrigsten example is a good one (because I see no signs of doping in his progression, nor in Katir’s)… The Devil is in the details, and statistics (over progression and reasons) can never be detailed enough to judge any athlete at all -we simply don’t have the necessary facts detailed enough for each athlete…
Therefore you have to make your own weird short cuts in analysing the statistics: Since Jakob Ingebrigsten’s 9 sec progression ended at 3.31.18 you draw an artificial limit at 3.30.0 so you can exclude him as an outlier, choosing Katir’s 8 sec instead. But this is to manipulate the statistics the way it suits your own agenda! (We can all do that; that’s the reason statistics have to be treated with care, or else they will lead to conspiracy theories…)
Jakob I. ran 6 races under 3.31.7 before breaking 3.30 (you say), and that’s of course not strange at all, since a great improvement often is followed by smaller steps. -The same is to be said about Katir; his 3.28 is a kind of ( maybe intermediate) plateau surrounded by his 3,29 and 3.30s… (But even here your statistics could have been ruined if Jakob hadn’t eased up over the finish line in his 3.30.16 -shows how fragile statistics always are).
You really don't get it do you. And I am actually not sure what "stats" of the "sample size" you are looking at. It's pretty definitive that over the course of history that athletes with the ability to break through to this truly elite sub 3.30 club (more on that below since you disagree with a "limit") very rarely can do it irrespective of how good they are, unless they run in the low 3.30's prior.
You talk about this "artificial limit" - you mean "arbitrary limit" of 3.30 and yes it is one but we have to have one. We can just say for example that 4.00 or 3.50 is that limit and we look at all athletes in history to see what kind of jumps they made through those thresholds. Why? Well the most obvious one is the insane volume of "evidence" we would have to deal with but more importantly - and this is the point you don't see to grasp - that as we move away from the WR which is the current limit of peak human performance all "jumps" are not created equal. Dropping 8 seconds from 4.00 to 3.52 is not the same as from 3.36 to 3.28. Even going 3.40 to 3.32 is not the same as 3.36 to 3.28. If you can't grasp this then honestly you don't have the knowledge to have this discussion.
Why did I pick 3.30? Here is the rationale. For an elite 1500m runner, running 3.29.x is seen as the plateau of excellence. For many even incredible outlier talents it is the last of these performance plateaus to realistically aspire to because it is superior to a 3.50 mile, but far more attainable than what could be seen as the "final frontier" (outside of running the WR) which is the 3.45 mile (only 3 men in history even reached that). Only 38 men in history have run under 3.30 which is more than requisite to be seen as an elite plateau and it is still close enough to that pinnacle performance of the WR (3.26.00). It's not just a physiological barrier but even more so a psychological and emotional one - which is precisely why we see so many athletes run in the low 3.30's prior to breaking it - some of them (like Coe, Willis etc) have to pay their dues for many years at this level before doing so.
What I sense from you is a total lack of understanding how hard this is to do and how good of an athlete you need to be. You clearly see 3.30 in a similar vein to you see 3.40 - if an athlete can go from 3.46 to 3.38 in a season why can't an athlete go from 3.36 to 3.28? You don't understand this sport.
My points aren't really based on statistics - they purely support my stand on this but you also have latched onto this narrative about "manipulation and selection to prove a narrative". How original of you - just classic default tactics for someone out of ideas with no basis for their own POV.
This is quite simple - you either don't believe that there are any thresholds or plateaus of performance in this event (in which case this discussion is over because then I know you don't understand this event let alone the sport of competitive running) or you have a different idea of what is reasonable to draw the line at. I mean, you surely don't think a 3.33 runner coming out and running 3.25 would be seen as plausible right, so in this case why don't you tell me what you think is a reasonable time to improve 8 seconds in a 1500m from. Is it 3.40 to 3.32? 3.38 to 3.30? 3.33 to 3.25? The floor is yours.
Coevett if you were a lawyer you’d lose the jury every time because you get stuck on these inane fallacies that you insist on bringing up. Here, you are insisting that Katir ran 7:27 on this awful day for running in Gateshead. Made even more bizarre by you share a video where it’s plain as day the conditions were excellent. So excellent in fact that Butchart ran his best PB by WA points in 3rd, McSweyn nearly matched his PB despite leading etc and you can see the sun shining on a pleasant day. Just give it a rest on stuff like that.
Again I’m not arguing either way - Katir had remarkable improvement from March 2021-May 2021. That is the story and everything else is whether you think the testing system works and so on.
I was at the Gateshead Grand Prix sat on the bottom bend in the pouring rain.
The weather conditions were anything but perfect for distance running. If you have ever been to Gateshead (I grew up 3 miles away and regularly trained on the track) you would know that it is ALWAYS windy, that day it was windy, cold and wet. It was nothing like a still night in Oslo or even London. It was not a day for PBs. It was a highly competitive race with lots of great talent.... But it was never ever 'perfect' for distance running.
I got soaked to the skin, I was freezing and cold and miserable, apart from that race there was very little entertainment in that meeting for a diamond league event.
I was at the Gateshead Grand Prix sat on the bottom bend in the pouring rain.
The weather conditions were anything but perfect for distance running. If you have ever been to Gateshead (I grew up 3 miles away and regularly trained on the track) you would know that it is ALWAYS windy, that day it was windy, cold and wet. It was nothing like a still night in Oslo or even London. It was not a day for PBs. It was a highly competitive race with lots of great talent.... But it was never ever 'perfect' for distance running.
I got soaked to the skin, I was freezing and cold and miserable, apart from that race there was very little entertainment in that meeting for a diamond league event.
Again. You can gaslight us all you want. There were two different meets and we can watch the meet where he ran the 3k. Bromell went sub-10 the weather was high 60s and there was an 8mph wind referenced in this thread. The sun is out for the 3k. There were many PBs in the race (Butchart, Crippa, Mortimer) whether you enjoyed getting wet in the stands (allegedly).
Predictions and comments here please with thanks.https://london.diamondleague.com/lists-results-london/#baseFrame#__athSchedule#ScheduleInit#London2021_CURRENTEVENT_JSONEditor's Note: We changed the title of this thread t...
You're telling somebody who actually attended the meet and got soaked to the skin how the weather was actually great, and then accusing him of gaslighting YOU??
You're telling somebody who actually attended the meet and got soaked to the skin how the weather was actually great, and then accusing him of gaslighting YOU??
If YOU are the one telling me the weather was terrible - in an attempt to highten up the performance of an African runner - it's for certain the weather was close to perfect.
You're telling somebody who actually attended the meet and got soaked to the skin how the weather was actually great, and then accusing him of gaslighting YOU??
I’m telling him he has failed to separate his recollection from the realities of the race in question. We have video of a sunny, pleasant race where most of the race PBed. If our guy got soaked, thoughts and prayers but clearly the athletes who ran their best-ever performances were unbothered .
I’m telling him he has failed to separate his recollection from the realities of the race in question. We have video of a sunny, pleasant race where most of the race PBed. If our guy got soaked, thoughts and prayers but clearly the athletes who ran their best-ever performances were unbothered .
Leaving aside the weather for the moment, they got pulled to their pbs by the insanely powered Katir. Are you the same Thoughtsleader guy who called me an idiot the other day because I pointed out the fact that Katir ran faster in Florence two years ago?
There's nothing more boring than speculative threads about doping based on results. It's the either/or mindset of the fake scientist. It's fake science to say that you know that someone is doping based on their results. Period. You can say that someone is suspicious, but it's not like the body has one or two on-off switches labeled "Dope" or "no Dope," and it's not as if athletes and coaches aren't looking for legit (and semi-legit, but not illegal) ways to improve performance. There are also a zillion substances in the world, and most of them aren't banned. Furthermore there's no commonality that encompasses Usain Bolt on one side and Haile Gebrselassie on the other that says that human capacity is X.
I'm not gonna tell you that Katir or anyone else is or isn't clean (I find his response annoying), but I can tell you for freakin' sure that y'all usually don't know one way or another.
I’m telling him he has failed to separate his recollection from the realities of the race in question. We have video of a sunny, pleasant race where most of the race PBed. If our guy got soaked, thoughts and prayers but clearly the athletes who ran their best-ever performances were unbothered .
Leaving aside the weather for the moment, they got pulled to their pbs by the insanely powered Katir.
OK, the moment is over, back to the weather...
It seems the weather was very good.
The pace was done by McSweyn - not Katir - who run close to his PB. Btw, what's wrong with him at the moment?