You seem to forget that for all the times Lagat has a decent kick he gets outkicked by lesser athletes. Hasn't he lost over half of his GP races in the kick? I mean, the last two or three years he hasn't exactly been that dominant like say a Coe or Morceli or ElG has been. Webb beat him!
Johnny Gray is 9th all time in the 800m....so wake up!
O.K. (yawn)
Performer/Performance
1 - 1 1:41.11 Wilson Kipketer DEN 12.12.70 1 Köln 24.08.1997
2 - 3 1:41.73 Sebastian Coe GBR 29.09.56 1 Firenze 10.06.1981
3 - 5 1:41.77 Joaquim Carvalho Cruz BRA 12.03.63 1 Köln 26.08.1984
4 - 10 1:42.28 Sammy Koskei KEN 14.05.61 2 Köln 26.08.1984
5 - 13 1:42.34 Wilfred Bungei KEN 24.07.80 2 Rieti 08.09.2002
6 - 16 1:42.47 Yuriy Borzakovskiy RUS 12.04.81 1 Bruxelles 24.08.2001
7 - 21 1:42.55 André Bucher SUI 19.10.76 1rA Zürich 17.08.2001
8 - 23 1:42.58 Vebjørn Rodal NOR 16.09.72 1 Atlanta 31.07.1996
9 - 25 1:42.60 Johnny Gray USA 19.06.60 2 Koblenz 28.08.1985
Wrongo wrote: Coe was great and still is one of the best ever, but his achievements have been surpassed (not the double 1500 gold, obviously, but time-wise and race-tactic wise, he would not be winning golds in the current aura of the event established by Morceli and El Guerrouj).
That first "but" is easy to write, but ultimately devoid of content. ALL achievements by ALL runners of ALL past and present eras have always ultimately been surpassed--if what we're talking about is times, that is. (Numbers of gold medals may be a different story. Those sorts of achievements often considerably outlast fast times.)
It's easy to make suppositions, based on the times Coe ran back when, about how he would have fared in today's races, but they're mistake suppositions. They neglect to take into account, among other things:
*) advances in training methods, shoe composition, track surface, etc.
*) how Coe, like all great competitors, would have responded to being surrounded by the faster competitors of our own time
Here's something to think about: ALL the current world best times, no matter how remarkable, will someday seem....well, quaint. Bekele, Geb? "Well," a kibbitzer like you will say in twenty-five years, "Bekele and Geb were great, but......" Much citing of current stats, superseded WRs, etc. "Geb was the Nuurmi of his day, but....."
Humph.
Flagpole Willy wrote:
wrote:So by your reasoning, Bernard Lagat is a far better than Coe, Cram or Ovett because he has a faster 1500m time though he doesn't have Oly golds. Wow that makes a lot of sense.
As far as 1500 meters goes, yes, Lagat is better...as others have said. SOME credit of course goes to Olympic Gold medalists, but ONE gold medal and then a ho-hum career beyond that should not elevate that person to better than someone who hasn't wold a gold medal.
Cacho won gold in 3:40. Clearly he was a better runner than that time suggests, but if an Olmpic 1500 final can be won in such a slow time, that suggests that some not-so-stellar athletes can sometimes come away with a victory. As Olympic finals tend to be tactical races, sometimes a slower athlete wins. Can't then say that that athlete is better than someone who was consistently stellar yet never won a gold medal.
We need to weigh the totality of a career. Cacho won a gold. He never set any records although he was competitive otherwise. I don't know anyone in their right mind who'd suggest he was one of the greatest ever.
Coe won two Olympic gold medals and set the WR. That alone is worth consideration over a guy who was dragged to his fastest time.
Wrongo wrote:
Screw it, I was thinking of the 800 where Ovett beat Coe in his favored event.
The argument stands; Lagat would feed Coe his lunch at 1500m. The guy dropped a 51 and a 1:46 in Athens. Coe never did that.
Nothing like a dope using "Wrongo" as a handle being completely wrong on simple facts known to the vast majority of distance running fans.
Wrongo wrote:
wtf wrote:Coe ran the last 800 of a 1500 in 1:46 in 1987.
Document this. Was it a 3:34 race? Just curious.
Why should anyone have to document anything to you. You can't get a pretty well known fact, easily researched either online or in a book, correct.
Now you're going to demand proof?
You're a bigger dope than I thought.
The Coach who Cares wrote:
Coe won two Olympic gold medals and set the WR. That alone is worth consideration over a guy who was dragged to his fastest time.
Nobody is "dragged" to a fast time. Last I checked, no matter when someone ran a fast time (in this case the AR in the 5,000), that runner got from the start line to the finish line on his own power. The fact that there were even faster people in the same race has nothing to do with how great the run was.
Man, I've been in lots of races with people much faster than me. How come they didn't "drag" me to a super fast time. Oh yeah, because being dragged to a fast time is crap.
Cacho set the European record in the 1500 meters.
Two Oly medals, two WC medals (and another 4th) - he was a stud. Certainly not on the level of Coe, but his career matches up with Lagat's pretty well - Cacho has more championship medals but slower times, both were routinely beat by the dominant runner of their era. Lagat's career of course is not over yet.
Flagpole Willy wrote:
The Coach who Cares wrote:Coe won two Olympic gold medals and set the WR. That alone is worth consideration over a guy who was dragged to his fastest time.
Nobody is "dragged" to a fast time. Last I checked, no matter when someone ran a fast time (in this case the AR in the 5,000), that runner got from the start line to the finish line on his own power. The fact that there were even faster people in the same race has nothing to do with how great the run was.
Man, I've been in lots of races with people much faster than me. How come they didn't "drag" me to a super fast time. Oh yeah, because being dragged to a fast time is crap.
The concept of being "dragged" to a fast time is very real in the context that you weren't victorious in the race that you ran the time in.
So while a lesser athlete such as you or me might have trouble keeping up with an athlete who is much better than us, the Kennedy's, Lagat's, etc. can lock onto a guy who's just a bit better and grab a PR.
Repairman wrote:
Cacho set the European record in the 1500 meters.
Two Oly medals, two WC medals (and another 4th) - he was a stud. Certainly not on the level of Coe, but his career matches up with Lagat's pretty well - Cacho has more championship medals but slower times, both were routinely beat by the dominant runner of their era. Lagat's career of course is not over yet.
I was probably too dismissive of Cacho's career but my point was that I don't think he comes up in a discussion of the absolute greatest 1500m runners of all time. He's probably on the next rung down.
QFE...
The Coach who Cares wrote:
(Wrongo), why should anyone have to document anything to you. You can't get a pretty well known fact, easily researched either online or in a book, correct.
Now you're going to demand proof?
You're a bigger dope than I thought.
Flagpole Willy wrote:
The Coach who Cares wrote:Coe won two Olympic gold medals and set the WR. That alone is worth consideration over a guy who was dragged to his fastest time.
Nobody is "dragged" to a fast time. Last I checked, no matter when someone ran a fast time (in this case the AR in the 5,000), that runner got from the start line to the finish line on his own power. The fact that there were even faster people in the same race has nothing to do with how great the run was.
Man, I've been in lots of races with people much faster than me. How come they didn't "drag" me to a super fast time. Oh yeah, because being dragged to a fast time is crap.
because they were a LOT faster than you, or you were a wuss, either one.
But in all seriousness, it does make a big difference. Morceli and his coach have repeatedly said that Morceli would have run under 3:27 if he actually someone with him after 1000m or 1100m which he would then be on his own. Now look at Ngeny and Lagat - even if they didn't beat ElG, they basically sat on him from start to finish so it's like having a rabbit the ENTIRE race. I think you can fathom that having someone pace for your the entire distance is a lot easier than having someone pace you for 2/3 the distance.
Of course people run faster with competition. I'm not saying that they don't, but to imply that BK's 12:58 isn't worthy of attention because he was "dragged" to it is bogus. He did run that time did he not? TWICE under 13:00 even!
When the hell do people accept a swift time?
1) If rabbits are used and there's no competition, people just say, "it's was a time trial".
2) If they lose to a faster person, they say they were "dragged" or "pulled along".
3) If they blow away a slower field, someone will say it was easy because they had no pressure and no one got in their way...that they could manage the race as they wanted.
4) If the time was run in a non-Olympic year, the guy gets slammed for not being able to run fast when it counts.
Here's the deal...if the guy runs a time without cheating in any way, then the time gets to stand on its own with no asterix, no qualification, no anything. A time is a time.
12:58...9th fastest in the world at that point, and loads faster than anyone who posts here.
No one's saying it's not worthy of attention but relying on that SOLELY as the notion of determing who is better (which you have stated earlier) is not the right way to go. A bunch of other people have stated already that you have to look at championship records as well as times they posted. You can't do either alone.
I make the big deal about pacing because that is a big issue when comparing guys from different eras.
Also you need to remember that people are in this sport to race not just to time trial. Granted WR's are important in the sport but so is racing. I guess to you, it would just make you happy to see time trialed affairs and call whoever ran fastest as the best athlete. But to most people in the sport they would disagree. You have to take into account how they race. A lot of people can race well but can't put a fast time, and a lot of guys can time trial well but are just crappy tacticians. The guys who can pull off both well, I put in the boat as a great athlete. Lagat doesn't fit that bill as well as guys like Morceli, Coe, ElG because he has a lot of lackluster races for every race he wins.
The Coach who Cares wrote:
Wrongo wrote:Document this. Was it a 3:34 race? Just curious.
Why should anyone have to document anything to you. You can't get a pretty well known fact, easily researched either online or in a book, correct.
Now you're going to demand proof?
You're a bigger dope than I thought.
Actually, you are wrong. Coe missed almost the entire '87 season with an injury and only did a few short races in May. He didn't do a 1500m race that year. The guy who closed the last 800m in 1:46 in '87 was Abdi Bile in the World Championships final, and that was a 3:36 race. Coe never closed a 1500m race that fast, though he was very impressive in Moscow and LA - 1:48 last 800m in a 3:38 race in Moscow, and a 1:50 last 800m in a 3:32 race in LA
All this comparison of fastest kickers is very context dependent. Most people don't kick from 800 out so when we look at final 800 times, it is really only the last 400-500 that was really fast. Who knows what would happen if they had kicked earlier. For example, Morceli dropped a 1:49.0 with a 50.6 last lap at the '93 World Champs, and he really didn't get things moving until 500 to go or so when he decided to end sitting with the pack.
huh? what? wrote:
wtf wrote:Certainly behind Marty Liquori and Bob Schul.
Not even close. Get a clue.
huh? what?...
HERE'S THE CLUE:
SAD ALMOST.... BUT TRUE... THE OLYMPIC GOLD IS WORTH 1000 CONSISTANT QUALITY TIMES!!! (BOB SCHUL)
THIS IS WHAT COMPETITION RUNNING IS ALL ABOUT... WINNING!!!
BOB SCHUL HAD A CONSISTANT IMPROVING CAREER, GREAT YEAR IN '64... THEN, DISASTER... INJURIES... BUT LET THERE BE NO QUESTION ABOUT THE 5000 AT TOKOYO... THE FINAL CONTAINED THE BEST 5000 METERS RUNNERS IN THE WORLD, WHO HAD 4 YEARS TO PREPARE. FROM THE HALFWAY POINT TO THE FINISH THE SPEED CONSTANTLY INCREASED. ON A MUDDY CINDER TRACK, TO RUN 52'S AND LEAVE THE REST OF THE WORLD IN YOUR "WAKE" IS A HECK OF A WAY TO WIN GOLD!
The Coach who Cares wrote:
Why should anyone have to document anything to you. You can't get a pretty well known fact, easily researched either online or in a book, correct.
Now you're going to demand proof?
You're a bigger dope than I thought.
Hilarious.
You can't document it because it never happened.
I also knew very well who won which event; it was an instance of posting without thinking, something that most on here do not 5% of the time but ALL the time.
It seems they can include you in their numbers.