Brazier's a 800-specialist, meaning he's best at the 800 and his 400/1500 times are about equal in terms of performance. Brazier's 400 speed is about average for 800 guys at his level, so he's definitely not a 4/8 type.
45.x relay split in HS
I actually think Brazier and Korir could both be examples of why some mileage runs are important for effective 800 guys. Brazier's best year he bumped up his mileage and said in an Instagram post that he was running ~35 miles a week after he ran 3:37 at a sound running event in Azusa. He also said in another interview that his longest run was something like 7-8 miles and he's never run more than an hour in his life. To me, this implied that he's doing more steady runs as others have mentioned rather than doing a dedicated long run like in a traditional distance program. Korir is definitely more of a 400/800 guy but even he ran xc at utep and, though I don't know about his specific training, doesn't seem afraid to get after the mileage within reason.
High mileage for 800m athletes is outdated. One-hundred to 120 mile per week gals or guys no longer win international 800m gold medals. Asking a web site filled with Marathon to ultra-Marathon posters, you will get skewed opinions in the wrong direction regarding ideal 800m training.
High mileage for 800m athletes is outdated. One-hundred to 120 mile per week gals or guys no longer win international 800m gold medals. Asking a web site filled with Marathon to ultra-Marathon posters, you will get skewed opinions in the wrong direction regarding ideal 800m training.
Yeah, when reading any advice in this thread, consider if the poster is actually paying attention to the modern 800m, or are they considering the 800m a distance race and providing generic advice for distance runners?
If anaerobic intervals destroy runners and are exclusively a "cherry on top" kinda thing. someone like Jonathan Jones should probably be dead instead of... better than Jakob Ingebrigtsen at the 800m.
God, imagine being a young runner who doesn't know much and THIS is the coach you get...
One can't accidentally or randomly 'get' a particular coach. There is no leader of running that assignes one to you. The only way anyone can be 'your' coach is if you decide they are.
Now, most of you will say that school districts across the country hire them, presumably including the OP and many other posters. They are hired prior to a particular kid's attendance at the school and without student input. True, but that alone doesn't give them authority to coach you. The school didn't agree that you will be coached by their employee.
My school district hired one of the assistant football coaches for track. What a bummer it must have been to 'get' this guy as a coach. In actuality, he never had any influence over my running. We literally never met or spoke. Nobody decided he would be coaching me. I didn't enter into any such agreement. He wouldn't have known who I was if he saw me.
Why the concept I outline is so little-known is a mystery to me. Again: She/he is not your coach unless you decide she/he is and agree to be coached by her/him.
So there are two questions: Do 800m runners need aerobic training? What is the best way to increase aerobic performance?
As others have mentioned 800m races are somewhere between 30-70% aerobic, so you need to train the aerobic capacity.
For whatever reason, aerobic training is best accomplished with zone 1-zone 2 training with length of time exercising in the range of 30-60 minutes--hence "long" runs.
It's simple. Race pace sprints get you ready for 400m-600m. His race is 800m. That last 200m is a doozy.
also something that sounds correct but isn't necessarily true! who is more tired after a 50 second 400m? a guy with a 45 second 400m pr, or a guy with a 48 second 400m pr?
endurance types in the modern 800m have the choice of hanging far back, being out of it and praying everyone blows up, or coming too close to their top speed early and having their kick zapped out of them.
800s aren't even necessarily going out too fast these days without guys like rudisha and wesley vazquez, but what you do see today is mid-race pace injections that can mess up guys without adequate speed reserve pretty bad.
there are still modern milers with 1:44 prs, but why don't you ever see them in the top level of the 800m? the current tactics are unkind.
Brazier's a 800-specialist, meaning he's best at the 800 and his 400/1500 times are about equal in terms of performance. Brazier's 400 speed is about average for 800 guys at his level, so he's definitely not a 4/8 type.
45.x relay split in HS
Yeah, that's average for a 1:42 guy, and Brazier hasn't shown he can do better despite many attempts. 45 is also equal to 3:35 - he's a perfect example of an "800-specialist"
High mileage for 800m athletes is outdated. One-hundred to 120 mile per week gals or guys no longer win international 800m gold medals. Asking a web site filled with Marathon to ultra-Marathon posters, you will get skewed opinions in the wrong direction regarding ideal 800m training.
Yeah, when reading any advice in this thread, consider if the poster is actually paying attention to the modern 800m, or are they considering the 800m a distance race and providing generic advice for distance runners?
If anaerobic intervals destroy runners and are exclusively a "cherry on top" kinda thing. someone like Jonathan Jones should probably be dead instead of... better than Jakob Ingebrigtsen at the 800m.
I agree that high mileage is "outdated" (in general) for 800 athletes, I'm positive it's still the best route for some, but probably not most. On the flip side, super duper low mileage is also the best route for some, but definitely not everyone. I feel like most elites are in the 30–70mpw camp. That's a broad range, but at the very least, the 30mpw guys do some form of easy, slow running.
You mention Jones, and I've been curious about UT & Texas A&M's training for a bit. I know Texas A&M used to post workouts on YouTube and it was fun to see. They'd do stuff like 1000/800/600/400/200/200. But as far as I know they never really went too in detail about what a full training week was or how they periodized. I can only assume that they do some form of easy mileage, even if it's 1–2 on the warmup and another 1–2 on the cooldown some days, that could easily turn into 20 miles of easy aerobic running.
Alan posted Juanterna's training. In the first section he just says "warm up" and "cool down". Later in the document he says things like "3k cross" for a warmup, which I can only assume means 3,000m of off road running. Which again, can easily add up to 20 miles of just easy running. Even Clyde Hart had his 400m athletes run 1-2 miles now and then.
If we're talking real 400/800 guys, I don't think 20 minutes worth of tempoing or fartlek is a requirement at all. I don't think running a long run of 6-7 miles is a requirement, especially at the high school level. I think true speed based guys can replace those types of sessions with things like, idk just making this up, 20x100 @ 17s w/ short rest. But that's a far cry from the mentioned 5x1000 @ 2:42. The 20x100 will be a brisk walk in the park, a little burn, that 5x1000 will make you see god.
Not sure where I was going with this, but I think it could be a dicey to plan ZERO easy to moderate aerobic efforts for almost (I said almost) all 800 athletes.
Yeah, that's average for a 1:42 guy, and Brazier hasn't shown he can do better despite many attempts. 45 is also equal to 3:35 - he's a perfect example of an "800-specialist"
How I look at Brazier is that he "paved the way" for the 400/800 specialist while never actually being one himself. If you come into a Pat Henry program with 45.x and leave a Pat Henry program with 45.x, while dropping your 800 5 seconds or whatever, you're not really a 400 guy.
We now see NCAA coaches recruiting 47/1:5[0123] type kids and turning them into 45/1:4[456] guys. They improve at both events. They are physically incapable of running 1:42 or 3:35 like Brazier.
Devin Dixon split a bunch of 44s and a 43 and was holding his own against proper 400 guys like Michael Norman. Will Sumner just split a 44 and seems highly likely to do stuff like that too.
But until Brazier, coaches were looking for the Robby Andrews of the world instead of the Isaiah Jewetts to pad out their 800m roster.
I think we're missing a key piece of information here is the 200m splits from your athlete's 1:52 race. I'm guessing based on the profile + workouts you gave us that he has a big positive split for his 2nd lap and especially his last 200, but it would be good to have that data. I'll admit to being a little skeptical of this 3x600 workout at 1:24, even with the big rests. If he really is doing that, then he's a big talent and 1:52 is just scratching the surface. 3x1:24 indicates a high level of anaerobic fitness, speed endurance, and 800-specific endurance. I would expect an optimally trained athlete capable of completing that workout would have a really strong last 200 of their 8. So if he's coming home in 30 seconds then you know he probably needs some longer endurance work at slower paces to help "support" his current fitness.
Increasing mileage can help with this, but that's not the only way. I've found that interval sessions at 3k/5k pace translate nicely as aerobic support for the pure 800 runner. These don't have to be insanely hard, more of a check the box kind of day. The paces are fast enough that they shouldn't degrade speed, as long as your guy runs them with good cadence and resists the urge to overstride as a means of slowing himself down. A couple examples of highly manageable aerobic workouts:
5x1k @5k pace w/2min rests
5-6x800 @5k-3k pace w/2min rests
2x(4x400) @3k pace w/1min rests, 2min btw sets
Your athlete should be able to hit a hard session 2 days after one of these workouts. If he needs more than 1 easy day recovery then the workout was probably too hard. I also like to throw in a couple 100's or 150's at race pace after aerobic workouts. I would also note that I intentionally slow down the assigned paces for my 800 guys when they do longer reps. 800 runners in general tend to be aggressive trainers, especially on the track, so if I want them to average 2:25's I need to tell them 2:28's.
Good luck with your athlete! These are just my thoughts, hopefully some small part of it helps. There are many ways to approach this particular event.
I agree that high mileage is "outdated" (in general) for 800 athletes, I'm positive it's still the best route for some, but probably not most. On the flip side, super duper low mileage is also the best route for some, but definitely not everyone. I feel like most elites are in the 30–70mpw camp. That's a broad range, but at the very least, the 30mpw guys do some form of easy, slow running.
You mention Jones, and I've been curious about UT & Texas A&M's training for a bit. I know Texas A&M used to post workouts on YouTube and it was fun to see. They'd do stuff like 1000/800/600/400/200/200. But as far as I know they never really went too in detail about what a full training week was or how they periodized. I can only assume that they do some form of easy mileage, even if it's 1–2 on the warmup and another 1–2 on the cooldown some days, that could easily turn into 20 miles of easy aerobic running.
Alan posted Juanterna's training. In the first section he just says "warm up" and "cool down". Later in the document he says things like "3k cross" for a warmup, which I can only assume means 3,000m of off road running. Which again, can easily add up to 20 miles of just easy running. Even Clyde Hart had his 400m athletes run 1-2 miles now and then.
If we're talking real 400/800 guys, I don't think 20 minutes worth of tempoing or fartlek is a requirement at all. I don't think running a long run of 6-7 miles is a requirement, especially at the high school level. I think true speed based guys can replace those types of sessions with things like, idk just making this up, 20x100 @ 17s w/ short rest. But that's a far cry from the mentioned 5x1000 @ 2:42. The 20x100 will be a brisk walk in the park, a little burn, that 5x1000 will make you see god.
Not sure where I was going with this, but I think it could be a dicey to plan ZERO easy to moderate aerobic efforts for almost (I said almost) all 800 athletes.
Someone tell me why I'm wrong.
In fact, I really can't find much info about true 400/800 training out there. This site is obviously geared towards distance running, anybody got good resources?
