Can you imagine if LetsRun existed during LASSE Viren’s career?

I think his point is that the dominance of the Finns would be put down to genetic advantage if some of the same sorts of arguments are used that try to explain Kenyan success.

I would suggest that genetic advantage must be inherent in any top athlete but am sceptical of a view that any race or culture has a clear advantage of that kind. The former dominance of the Finns tends to show that. There are other factors that play a role in the success of national or tribal groups.

Exactly. There are other factors that play a role like environment, culture, and social factors. Finns call this "sisu". Climate and wilderness have no genes. These are environmental factors.

I think he is actually in agreement with you, but is presenting the arguments of those who ascribe group success to genetics to include the Finns on that score. In other words, if Kenyan success is genetic then why not that of the Finns? But we don't say that about the Finns. So, equally, it may not apply to Kenyans. The point is that the success of both could be attributable to a variety of other factors, that you describe as "environmental" or cultural.

Do you think so? He said climate and wilderness is genetic. I said it is environment. He said I didn't know that. English is not my only language, so I could be wrong, but that doesn't sound like agreement.

But sure, both Kenyans and Finns success can come from environment, culture, and social factors the Finns call sisu.

You are not very bright.

What exactly are you talking about? Is there any sense in what you're trying to say?

Kenyans living at altitude for hundreds of generations (supposedly) causing them to evolve special adaptations for distance running is 'completely different to saying genetic advantage'? What on Earth are you talking about? Seriously.

Someone knew something about it her is a 1976 article to prove it:

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/08/01/archives/the-blood-scandal.html

I was talking about the Finns. The question is, what are you talking about? Genetics or environment?

First you said: In the 1930's it was widely believed that the Finnish domination of distance running was due to genetic advantages. That is genetics.

Then you said: various theories about “climatic energy” and the vast wilderness where they lived—“like animals in the forest”—were offered for their success. That is not genetics, but environment.

Then the question to you, do you think Finnish success was due to genetics, environment, or doping?

Do you still think he is actually in agreement with me? He called me not very bright. That means he called himself not very bright too?

An article in the NY Times is not the average fan. My experience is that in previous decades fans knew very little about doping - and indeed many still don't, as these threads show. Most fans are still deniers, who try not to know that running has become one of the dirtiest sports. And Letsrunners in '76 are unlikely to be readers of the NY Times.

I think you're both in your own arm wrestle with each other. I'll leave you to it. But if he isn't saying what I thought he was, then, like you, I'm somewhat in the dark.

I think there was some real sour grapes emanating from Kiwi land following that Montreal 5000.

imo, Viren dug down deep like a real champion and held them off in the stretch to win the gold medal.

And they couldn't handle it.

Which is why I've long maintained that Viren's '76 Olympic performance was actually superior to Zatopek's '52 performance.

Zatopek was undeniably brilliant, but he didn't have to run a 10000 heat in '52. He had three days rest for his marathon whereas Viren had less than 24 hours. And finally, Viren ran his marathon about 10 minutes faster than Zatopek, which would mean Viren would have been nearly 2 miles ahead of Zatopek in the marathon.

Viren would have had a legitimate shot in that '76 marathon had he a few days prep.

But despite being amongst the very best athletes in the world with more familiarity with the sport and its competitors at that level than any present day Letsrun poster it was just "sour grapes" for them to be of the view Viren was likely blood doping?