I suppose the only time a system like "Open and XX" gets murky is when an XX person wins the overall. But those procedures can be delineated beforehand.
It doesn't get that murky; there are already races (typically ultramarathons, but not exclusively there) where the XX person wins the overall. Any race involving Camille Herron or Courtney Dauwalter carries that "risk."
You've completely misunderstood the entire situation.
Golden Tickets go to qualifiers for Western States. Western States qualifications are determined by sex, not by however a race decided to sort them. There's no qualifier in the Golden Ticket eligibility for "category you entered your race in." It's by sex, and that's it.
The top 2 in each sex get Golden Tickets.
Brady was the 2nd female by sex in the race. Brady gets the Golden Ticket.
Now, as for the race:
However the leaderboard was defining people was immaterial, same as if it glitched and didn't show Devan Yanko's result. Nobody would be complaining she shouldn't get her GT because she wasn't on the scoreboard.
Everyone should have known who Riley was: 93% UltraSignup score, won 8 of 9 races, 6th at Bandera earlier this year, and the ONLY non-binary entrant in the race. If hubby couldn't figure out to sort his tracking by overall results, or ask the RD in advance what he implications were, that's a coaching error.
The irony here is, this is what people want. They don't want men to say "I'm a female" and be able to sign up in the women's division. They want it determined by their sex. That's what happened here. and people still can't figure out that it worked.
not just the leaderboard, but all the race coverage including social media feeds for aravaipa and the javelina did not mention riley in the top 3 females during any of the coverage and only retroactively did the mea culpa on "thems" status in the race.
i bet you cash money had they not been in the top 3 golden ticket results they would have gladly collected whatever schwag prize for the top non binary finisher that hoka was giving out. this was mismanaged by aravaipa and javelina on how the race was going down in regards to the female golden ticket spot.
Why are so many nowadays trying to make it seem as though longstanding establishment sports organizations with well-documented records of unfairly excluding and mistreating female people based on our sex over many, many decades have all of a sudden in 2022 been reborn as inexperienced, clueless, incompetent outfits run by nitwits so inept and unpracticed at distinguishing males from females - and so brand new to crafting rules of fair play - that "they are kind of in the awkward teenager years with this stuff"?
I'm not "trying to make it seem" like anything. It is actually happening. Attempts are being made to incorporate non-binary divisions -- a noble cause, surely --but in some situations it's causing headaches that otherwise wouldn't have existed.
- Aravaipa bungled the leaderboard at Javelina Jundred, potentially causing runners to not know who they needed to beat.
- The NYC Half Marathon gave equal $5000 paychecks to winners in men's (1890 entrants), women's (990 entrants), and non-binary (14 entrants) divisions.
-There are accusations of sub-elite males registering as non-binary just to win prize money.
- The Chicago Marathon had a non-binary division, but with no prize money, which was called "hurtful."
By "awkward teenager years," I mean that many organizations don't know the exact right thing to do, or how to get all arms of their organization on the same page. They're trying to figure it out. I don't know the best solution, and there probably isn't one that's one size fits all. Rojo's suggestion of Open and XX divisions is my guess to where it'll end up, but I'm open to other ideas. It probably will take a lot of trial & error.
Why are so many nowadays trying to make it seem as though longstanding establishment sports organizations with well-documented records of unfairly excluding and mistreating female people based on our sex over many, many decades have all of a sudden in 2022 been reborn as inexperienced, clueless, incompetent outfits run by nitwits so inept and unpracticed at distinguishing males from females - and so brand new to crafting rules of fair play - that "they are kind of in the awkward teenager years with this stuff"?
I think your rant is misdirected. You're talking about the history of sex discrimination, and the awkward teenager comment seems to be referring to accommodating gender issues. They are not the same thing.
Yeah, you're probably right. I can get carried away - and in the process I sometimes veer off track.
Of course I know that sex discrimination and "accommodating gender [identity] issues" are not the same thing. But the post to which I responded with my rant about the history of sex discrimination against females in sport said:
Race organizations are kind of in the awkward teenager years right now with this stuff. Some good ideas will get proposed, some debacles will happen, some people will game the system, etc. But this is the only way to not exclude anyone.
This comment reflects the oft-heard view today that creation of a new non-binary category is necessary and essential because it's "the only way to not exclude anyone." Which is a position that seems premised on the belief that people have historically been excluded from sports, are being excluded from sports today, and are at grave risk of being excluded from sports in the future, based on the gender identities some people have, their gender expression, and the particular gender identity labels that some today use to describe themselves.
I don't think these premises are based in reality. The idea that human beings have an inner sense of masculinity or femininity and base our fundamental sense of self on the sexist sex stereotypes, roles and expectation associated with our own sex or the opposite sex - and the term "gender identity" itself - were invented by academic sexologists in the 1960s based on their work with so-called transsexuals, transvestites, fetishistic transvestites, practitioners of BDSM, and straight men and boys who cross-dress for sexual arousal and pleasure.
The term gender identity and the theories behind it - and the idea that they apply to everyone, not just to a very small number of people with some niche sexual issues and MH problems - only started to become popularized amongst the general public over the past 30 years. And these ideas and terms only really caught on with large swathes of the population in the US and some other countries in the past 10 years or so - due largely to new phenomena like smart phones and similar hand-held computer devices, high speed internet, ubiquitous wi-fi, social media, anime, internet video and pictorial porn, the morphing of the LGB lobby into the LGBTQ+ lobby, and the spread of workplace and school trainings in "equity, diversity and inclusion" that features and focuses on gender identity ideology.
No one used the term "non-binary gender identity"or heard of most of the myriad other newfangled gender identities and gender identity labels now in vogue until a just couple of years ago.
So how could it be that sports organizations and the general public have somehow racked up a long history of excluding people who identify as non-binary (and others novel gender identities) for conceptualizing themselves as non-binary and in other novel ways and for calling themselves non-binary and other newfangled terms?
It seems like the race had a good system for actually awarding the tickets but just made an error in how they presented the live updates to the athletes that I agree probably left the other women misled
Why are so many nowadays trying to make it seem as though longstanding establishment sports organizations with well-documented records of unfairly excluding and mistreating female people based on our sex over many, many decades have all of a sudden in 2022 been reborn as inexperienced, clueless, incompetent outfits run by nitwits so inept and unpracticed at distinguishing males from females - and so brand new to crafting rules of fair play - that "they are kind of in the awkward teenager years with this stuff"?
I'm not "trying to make it seem" like anything. It is actually happening. Attempts are being made to incorporate non-binary divisions -- a noble cause, surely --but in some situations it's causing headaches that otherwise wouldn't have existed.
- Aravaipa bungled the leaderboard at Javelina Jundred, potentially causing runners to not know who they needed to beat.
- The NYC Half Marathon gave equal $5000 paychecks to winners in men's (1890 entrants), women's (990 entrants), and non-binary (14 entrants) divisions.
-There are accusations of sub-elite males registering as non-binary just to win prize money.
- The Chicago Marathon had a non-binary division, but with no prize money, which was called "hurtful."
By "awkward teenager years," I mean that many organizations don't know the exact right thing to do, or how to get all arms of their organization on the same page. They're trying to figure it out. I don't know the best solution, and there probably isn't one that's one size fits all. Rojo's suggestion of Open and XX divisions is my guess to where it'll end up, but I'm open to other ideas. It probably will take a lot of trial & error.
Sorry if I mistook and mis-portrayed what you were saying. What I was taking issue with is the point you made in your earlier post that creating new categories in sport for people with non-binary gender identity - and perhaps for other gender identities? - is absolutely necessary because "this is the only way not to exclude anyone."
Now you say that creating non-binary divisions in sport is "a noble cause, surely."
Why? What actual problem(s) are solved or ameliorated by creating new divisions for non-binary identified people? Or for other people with other novel gender identities?
Do you have evidence that people have been excluded, or are at risk of being excluded, from sports for seeing and calling themselves non-binary? Or for having or claiming to have other gender identities?
I know there are legions of male athletes who have sought to and who want to compete in female sports based on their gender identities, or their gender identity claims. Many of these male athletes feel they have been and are being unfairly excluded from the female division. Same goes for many XY athletes with disorders/differences of male sex development like Caster Semenya.
But it seems to me that in the current century, sports governing bodies have bent over backwards to cater to male athletes with trans gender identities and DMSDs - at the expense of female athletes.
Also, none of these male athletes have ever been excluded from sports. Some of them have just faced restrictions and barriers when they've sought to participate and compete in the female division. They've always been free to participate in the male division - and many of them have.
Today, there are many female athletes who identify as non-binary as well as trans - and various other gender identities - participating and competing in the female division of numerous sports at every level. So long as they aren't taking exogenous T, no one in women's and girls' sports has an issue with these athletes. AFAIK, no one in girls' and women's sport is trying to exclude them or mistreat them in any way,
Or that's my impression. Perhaps you are privy to information I don't have? Please share what you know about all the female athletes who identify as non-binary and trans who have been, are being, and are at risk of being, excluded from sports because of their gender identities.
From the National Center for Transgender Equality: "People whose gender is not male or female use many different terms to describe themselves, with non-binary being one of the most common."
Isn't that pretty clear from an agreed upon representative? You don't categorize yourself as male or female so you choose non-binary?
Soooo, if you register for a race as non-binary you are not included in female or male qualifications for races or awards except for non-binary.
From the National Center for Transgender Equality: "People whose gender is not male or female use many different terms to describe themselves, with non-binary being one of the most common."
Isn't that pretty clear from an agreed upon representative? You don't categorize yourself as male or female so you choose non-binary?
Soooo, if you register for a race as non-binary you are not included in female or male qualifications for races or awards except for non-binary.
Golden Tickets are awarded based on sex, not gender.
20 years ago, hardly anyone recognized any distinction between "sex" and "gender". In fact, a large number of mostly older and/or not-super-woke folks even now think that "gender" is just a more genteel term for "sex". On a Facebook page dedicated to reuniting lost pets with their owners, many posters refer to the "gender" of lost or found dogs. I don't think anyone ever asked the dog about its gender identify (or its pronouns).
Because people used to giggle at the word "sex" and put "yes please" on forms, so they started using "gender" a substitute, until some psychologists decided gender was actually a different thing altogether.
Now that dropdown menus exist and everyone registers online, it should be easy to change it back to "sex" and solve these stupid issues.
Because people used to giggle at the word "sex" and put "yes please" on forms, so they started using "gender" a substitute, until some psychologists decided gender was actually a different thing altogether.
Now that dropdown menus exist and everyone registers online, it should be easy to change it back to "sex" and solve these stupid issues.
For sure. This race as a qualifier for Western States and should have not allowed a male who is non-binary be eligible to enter as female (Western States, for now anyway does not have a non-binary division. This is the reason the Riley entered as female in the 1st place
For sure. This race as a qualifier for Western States and should have not allowed a male who is non-binary be eligible to enter as female (Western States, for now anyway does not have a non-binary division. This is the reason the Riley entered as female in the 1st place
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