For those are are advising against the 15 mile long run. Would it be better to do it as a double, e.g a 10 plus 5 in the same day?
I'm not really advising against a 15 mile run. But if 15 is too long, sure. But again, you need to look at the effect it will have on the other six days.
My HS XC junior year I went from middle of the pack runner to almost winning state by running 45-60mpw with a 13 mile long run (22% to 29% of my weekly total). Previous year I had run 45 mpw with no run above 7.
My senior year our coach capped our long run at 10 miles (16% to 22% of my 45-60 mile weekly total). All other training stayed the same except one additional easy morning run per week. I ran 20-25 seconds slower on the same 5k XC courses all season and barely top 10 at state.
I'm not saying HS runners should do 13 miles for a long run, or a long run at all, just that it worked for me.
I believe your experience is very real and translatable. Then again, I’m guessing that long run of 13 miles was about 90 min for you, so not an awfully long way. I’ve seen many preps do well with a long run of 10-12 miles, progression style, on about 40-50 mpw total. The key seems to be taking a day off after to allow for adaptation.
For those are are advising against the 15 mile long run. Would it be better to do it as a double, e.g a 10 plus 5 in the same day?
I'm not really advising against a 15 mile run. But if 15 is too long, sure. But again, you need to look at the effect it will have on the other six days.
HRE, agreed. I’m in my 60s, and 15 miles is long. I need a rest day so the issue is, if the long run is reduced, every run day becomes semi long. I’m trying to run 60 mpw. The balance may be different for different runners.
Amazing that OP asks if anyone has seen something similar to what he may have experienced by adding length to his long run...and the thread deteriorates into pompous back and forth yapping about accomplishments and when/what a "proper long run" use is. Wish I could say I am surprised.
This thread has degenerated into a cycle where Malmo says,
1) "Don't neglect the rest of your training by over-relying on your long run."
Except that in post 2 of this thread he said that someone at the level of an 18 minute 5K runner should not be doing long runs. Period, stop, end of sentence.
No qualification, further explanation, or room for interpretation. A typically pompous proclamation from the original grumpy grandpa of LetsRun.
Interpret that however you want yet the board is anonymous. So...
Do whatever bad training program you want and tell me I am wrong. What do I care? Get used to looking at my athlete's backs.
See you’re trying to be tough, but you wind up unintentionally hilarious.
1) My point was that you seem to think that coaching is an opportunity to talk about you. You’re not Cerutty, Bowerman, or Jumbo. No one would care who you are even if you were not anonymous.
2) ‘Your athletes..’ reminds me of Burgess Meredith in Rocky. Do you make them ‘eat lightning and crap thunder?’
Good coaching is about trying to get the best out of someone, not try to get them to fit in some cookie cutter moulding. Lighten up!
This thread has degenerated into a cycle where Malmo says,
1) "Don't neglect the rest of your training by over-relying on your long run."
Except that in post 2 of this thread he said that someone at the level of an 18 minute 5K runner should not be doing long runs. Period, stop, end of sentence.
No qualification, further explanation, or room for interpretation. A typically pompous proclamation from the original grumpy grandpa of LetsRun.
Except that I provided links to pages and pages. You are unwilling to read them. The only thing you have offered in this thread is gratuitous personal insults.
This thread has degenerated into a cycle where Malmo says,
1) "Don't neglect the rest of your training by over-relying on your long run."
Except that in post 2 of this thread he said that someone at the level of an 18 minute 5K runner should not be doing long runs. Period, stop, end of sentence.
No qualification, further explanation, or room for interpretation. A typically pompous proclamation from the original grumpy grandpa of LetsRun.
That is true. However that provocative statement has led to an interesting discussion.
Post 2 in the thread @malmo: “What you've read is wrong. At your level you shouldn't be doing long runs.”
That is an unqualified, dismissive, and arrogant statement. There weren’t pages and pages of links to go along with it. That only came later when you were called out. Don’t try to shift the goalposts now.
Post 2 in the thread @malmo: “What you've read is wrong. At your level you shouldn't be doing long runs.”
That is an unqualified, dismissive, and arrogant statement. There weren’t pages and pages of links to go along with it. That only came later when you were called out. Don’t try to shift the goalposts now.
Not shifting any goalposts. My point on long runs is well established. I provided links to threads in which I made that point. You just don't want to hear it. Thats fine. Hang on to your cult-like mantra. It won't help the op at all.
@malmo, I’ll try one more time. The guy runs 40 mpw - so a 15 miler on Sunday sets him up for a solid week. Pair that with a day off and he’s got 25 miles left over 5 days. Maybe one tempo run and some intervals? I get that many people tend to lapse into steady-state pace, ie faster than easy, slower than tempo if they overemphasize a long run, but if he just gets one 20 min tempo run in and some form of intervals, he’ll be able to get in the low 17s or better from where he is. That’s a really good accomplishment for a hobby-jogging dad.
@otter - no offense intended, but it really seems that you’re very interested in talking about your accomplishments rather than what’s good for your charges. Maybe your charges are impressed with your family management, 10 hr per day job, and 100 mile weeks, but the vast majority of people just want to run a decent race and get the blood pumping. Why not think about what’s good for them rather than forcing them into your little template?
Interpret that however you want yet the board is anonymous. So...
Do whatever bad training program you want and tell me I am wrong. What do I care? Get used to looking at my athlete's backs.
…fine. Hang on to your cult-like mantra. It won't help the op at all.
It sounds like the OP is doing fine and doesn’t need my help. My interpretation of the OP was that he was sharing a good result that was somewhat counter to conventional wisdom. He asked if other people had similar results.
Enter grumpy grandpa: “$%$#^!”
I’ve got no cult-like mantra regarding training. For me, the approach in Dellinger’s book was very useful. I took some of Martin and Coe as well, and am generally utilitarian in my approach. I believe that training programmes should be fairly simple and easy to follow for recreational runners and it’s more important that something is fun and enjoyable than rigorously rooted in the latest and greatest training theory. Or Lydiard for that matter.
It would be a whole different story if OP was asking how to dip under 15 min, but he wasn’t.
Interpret that however you want yet the board is anonymous. So...
Do whatever bad training program you want and tell me I am wrong. What do I care? Get used to looking at my athlete's backs.
See you’re trying to be tough, but you wind up unintentionally hilarious.
1) My point was that you seem to think that coaching is an opportunity to talk about you. You’re not Cerutty, Bowerman, or Jumbo. No one would care who you are even if you were not anonymous.
2) ‘Your athletes..’ reminds me of Burgess Meredith in Rocky. Do you make them ‘eat lightning and crap thunder?’
Good coaching is about trying to get the best out of someone, not try to get them to fit in some cookie cutter moulding. Lighten up!
Let's see.
You already have a 4 mile run on a Wednesday but assuming you run at least 8 minutes per mile, you find it impossible to squeeze an extra 32 minutes in because you are so busy. You have spent more time than that on this thread.
@malmo, I’ll try one more time. The guy runs 40 mpw - so a 15 miler on Sunday sets him up for a solid week. Pair that with a day off and he’s got 25 miles left over 5 days. Maybe one tempo run and some intervals? I get that many people tend to lapse into steady-state pace, ie faster than easy, slower than tempo if they overemphasize a long run, but if he just gets one 20 min tempo run in and some form of intervals, he’ll be able to get in the low 17s or better from where he is. That’s a really good accomplishment for a hobby-jogging dad.
@otter - no offense intended, but it really seems that you’re very interested in talking about your accomplishments rather than what’s good for your charges. Maybe your charges are impressed with your family management, 10 hr per day job, and 100 mile weeks, but the vast majority of people just want to run a decent race and get the blood pumping. Why not think about what’s good for them rather than forcing them into your little template?
Reading through this thread.
Some posters are saying that one large long run on the weekend does not help at all.
Your response to that is that people don’t have time during the week? How is that at all relevant to whether that week d long run is helpful or not? It does not make sense.
If you are arguing that it does help I understand.
The guy reported that he thought doing a run that violated the ‘long run rule’ helped him. He asked if others had similar experiences.
malmo immediately harrumphed at him dismissively bc he is a 40 mpw, 18 min 5K guy. According to best practices, malmo is probably right.
Several of us noted that best practices can be overly restrictive and idealistic and probably don’t apply to recreational runners who have many time commitments and unpredictable jobs/family/whatever. malmo attempted to obfuscate with a thread bomb and changed the parameters of the original discussion.
My take: If a 2+ hour run works for you, then great. Even if it is irregular around the margins and violates one of the LR commandments.
Further I wish OP Godspeed and age-group success commensurate with his training regimen.
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