Sub-elite men trying to race elite women at the end of a road race is the worst. (from David Monti @d9monti)

Yeah, these really aren’t two different races.

I’ve run four marathons as a masters runner. All 4 resulted in top 100 overall finishes. I take some pride in that. One of those 4 finishes includes a 99th place finish in Boston. Should I have eased off if a woman was next to me going down Boylston?

Another time, I attempted to run a specific time at the Houston half. I realized early on that my goal was too ambitious, and at about 6 miles into the race, I ended up running with an elite US woman whom I was co Disney knew how to hold pace and was roughly as fit as me (Becky Wade) and another woman for the second half of the race. I beat Wade by a couple of seconds and set a new PR by a few seconds. Was I not supposed to kick there?

In the case of the Houston half, I did my share of the work and really led the 3 person pack most of the time, trying to keep the pace honest and on track. But that wasn’t because Wade is a woman, it’s because leeching off of someone an entire road race just to outkick them makes you douchey regardless of gender (see Meb and Rupp in 2016 Olympic Trials).

None of the instances youve described are unique to gender. If people do those things, they’re just jerks, and they’d do them to anyone.

Still, 7/10, 9/10 if you’re actually a dude.

Need to know wrote:

What's the etiquette if a 55 year old male is racing against an elite female near the finish, does he still have to pull up and defer to the woman? Or should she back off and let him finish first, since he's running a superior age-graded time? Or what if it's a 40 year old male, BUT he's currently running all six marathon majors in a matter of weeks? What if you finish near Joanie, are there extra special rules since she's beloved?

I've been in that situation. In my mid-50s I set a couple of state age records in 10k road races. It put me right around some of the top women. I certainly kicked all the way to the line.

Breaking the tape ahead of the first woman is pretty naff, that apart, I'm generally trying to run as fast as I can and if that involves passing a woman runner late on that's the way it is. It's nothing to do with being 'chicked' and everything to do with getting out my best effort.

There have been exceptional like a small 5k where I was in my late 50s and there was a high-school girl about to go to college who was going to run a similar time, and we were the quickest in the race. We just ran it together and dheated for the win. Race wasn't a big deal for either of us, so pointless thrashing round or coming down to a kick finish with a high-school runner.

I read on another thread that you are an attorney. Attorneys often look for compromise and solutions. Well? Should men who race 10K slower than 35 minutes be banned from road racing? You seem upset that there are men slower than 35 minutes racing road races. Stop simply whining and offer a solution. Elite women 10K road racers tend to race 10K on the road 32:30 and slower. Most men, as you know cannot race 10K faster than 32:30. If you race road races, men will be on the roads too. Most men can outsprint most women. Most men can outkick most women last 300m of 10K. Your whining is not going to change that. I want to read solutions from you. A long time ago when I was 18, as I stated men & women finished in same narrow chute. Finish was a slight downhill. It was my first 10K race. I misjudged my pace. I was running last 300m faster than 45 seconds. It hurt my ankles and knees to pull up and slow down at the end to allow female to enjoy her 1st place finish. I did that one time. Are you mad at former 400m guys for misjudging their pace? Offer solutions.

Good recap of the '16 Trials duel between Meb and Rupp.

EVERYONE ON THE COURSE IS ENTITLED TO PUT IN THEIR BEST EFFORT.

There is no obligation to stop or turn down your effort just because you have a similar result to someone who is high in their category.

FFS.

I am a 50-something master, and not bad in my category with a 1:1X half marathon.

Do I have a tantrum when a 24 year-old guy races me to the line?

NO! I thank him and feel good about my own effort. Shalane should try this rather than complaining.

I would never assume another racer’s gender.

YeshuaHaNozri wrote:

the whole point of twitter is inventing people to get mad at. it's a time honored tradition.

to address the concern: for some of us slow-but-not-that-slow guys, beating the fastest club female at the local 5K is an attainable way to preserve some of the pride that gets slowly sucked out of us by our dumb jobs. let us have this. and of course i won't break the tape. but i will laugh at guys who do because that is a 10/10 troll move.

I respect your honesty--this is a very interesting post, without going any further. True point about being in a dumb job with losing pride/morale.

I ran a local 5k recently and out-sprinted the first place kid. Felt a little bad but I was running a PB, wanted to make it as good as I could and had already started my kick about 50m earlier, you can't just turn that off once you're going.

I'm apologize in advance as this may seem argumentative but in the specific scenario where a male is drafting a female athlete throughout the race and outkicking her, would this be viewed differently if it was a male drafting another male?

That type of strategy happens all the time so I'm curious as to the female perspective of that. I'm a male and I could see how that is viewed as creepy by a female to have this individual following them the whole race. I do think if a male is sandbagging and not running to their potential by following that female, then that is definitely weird. But there are certainly the situations where a female could be a perfect pacer and pull another individual along to a PR, etc.

It is interesting to think about male to male and female to female interactions as humans that are normalized but if it was the same interaction to the opposite sex, it would be viewed inappropriate, weird or some other negative connotation.[/quote]

Chances are an elite female is going to run a much more even pace than a male running the same times. There are a number of reasons for this like it took her more training and experience to get there, but I won't go into all of these. As a guy, I'd absolutely draft off a woman the whole race then outkick her if I couldn't run faster by passing her. No one asks if you got chicked or barely beat any women when they ask your pr's.

Track meets don't consider your finishing place when they seed you.

If women don't like it, they can find track meets to run. Of course there is no guarantee a woman won't draft off them there... Hell there is no guarantee a woman won't draft off them in the road race either... I don't get what the difference is in the gender of the person who uses tactics to race women or beat women in races other than you don't want them breaking the tape for the lead woman...

6rfyoyxihdkhsodh wrote:

Actually, its pathetic and desperate when men can't race against the other men in their category and have to go all out to beat someone who isn't.

Thats what I think of men who try to outsprint me at the finish when I'm finishing in the top 3 or something and they are like 27th in the mens' field. Pathetic.

Even worse are the dudes who follow you for the entire race in order to outsprint you at the end. As if there is nobody else in the field for them to follow other than the blond with the swinging pony tail. Its like having your own stalker for the duration of a race. I *might* have accidentally stuck my elbow's in their face by slowing down and letting them pull alongside when that has happened.

Sometimes dudes are sitting and kicking to get better race times, nothing to do with looking at women. It's no different than drafting in NASCAR, IMO.

jecht wrote:

YeshuaHaNozri wrote:

the whole point of twitter is inventing people to get mad at. it's a time honored tradition.

to address the concern: for some of us slow-but-not-that-slow guys, beating the fastest club female at the local 5K is an attainable way to preserve some of the pride that gets slowly sucked out of us by our dumb jobs. let us have this. and of course i won't break the tape. but i will laugh at guys who do because that is a 10/10 troll move.

I respect your honesty--this is a very interesting post, without going any further. True point about being in a dumb job with losing pride/morale.

I can relate to that. I went to college and then grad school with rose colored glasses. I got good grades, graduated with honors and expected to be at the top of my field. NOPE! Its all about who you know and family connections. Now I have a job filled with silliness that at the end of the day barely matters (it might matter over a very long period of time). They tell me what time to come in and are upset that this crazy time means I miss out on sleep, how long I can take for lunch, etc. Its all soul sucking and draining and certainly doesn't make me particularly proud.

Running on the other hand allows me to ascend - and part of that is improving my placing in races against ALL competitors. I especially don't want to be beaten by women, children, and masters. Especially when those women may not have soul sucking work experiences like I do. As a man, I'm no great catch. I run times that wouldn't even take a woman a national record to beat, hardly more than a decent local athlete. Dam right it fills me with pride to not be beaten by anyone but male athletes between the ages of 19-44. I will try to out kick anyone, draft off anyone, throw off anyone with uneven pacing and surges, etc. because there is nothing else that over half of the 24 million people living in SoCal can't do that I can do. I'm an untalented individual training 100 mile weeks and hitting 4000 miles even in bad years (depressions, injury, etc) so of course I'm going to feel proud to outkick a woman.

I'm being a little facetious - but people are just people, just race and don't worry what anyone else thinks dudes and dudettes. People are stupid anyways - just look at the vaccine and masks - whichever side you are on you've got to believe there are a lot of stupid people out there. Why should anyone care what stupid people think. Some elite female athletes and subelite female athletes are very stupid too.

YUP! If someone has a better pr than me or is running at a pace to pull me to a pr or even just best recent time, and I can hold on. I don't care who they are, I'm going to use them, no matter how much it annoys them. See my last post, probably nothing else matters to me at that time than getting the best time I can in the race and beating one more person than I would with a slower strategy.

jecht wrote:

Glass City Marathon. I love it when she calls him an @SShole at the finish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUzFVc8VNAY

BEST COMMENT:

Let’s have a little sympathy for this guy, folks. It is very likely that he can’t even read to be able to know what he ran through. There is also a small probability (13/50) that he didn’t even know he was in a marathon and was just running from the police for 26 miles.[/quote]

Wow, casual racism on Letsrun is still a thing.

That's cute that a white woman expects a black man to slow down and walk in behind her.

This is a dumb post.^

Um actually I know exactly what it's like.

Good masters runners, ALL THE TIME, are surrounded by younger runners, even if we are racing for category places and cash and they are lower down in their division. Nobody complains. We are glad to have these young fast runners to chase.

WOMEN SHOULD BE THE SAME ABOUT MEN IN "THEIR" RACE.

IT'S ALL ONE RACE.

Here is the right approach:

1. I'm very sorry you've experienced these things and I do not doubt what you're saying. you're also right that as a man I have a privilege that probably makes me less sensitive to your experience, which is bad and I want to be better.

2. there's a difference between racing cleanly and hard and honestly on the one hand, and being an idiot and jerk like you describe on the other

3. at the same time, I think it's the opposite of equality and progress to suggest that just because someone is "middle ranking" in their gender they shouldn't race as hard as they can. blindly saying "all men who aren't elite should stop running hard when they see a fast woman" is ridiculous. it's even more ridiculous when you consider the fact that many elite women's marathon and half marathon times would win significant prize money in men's races around the country. the gap is just not that big in the longer distances.

4. you should have the right to vent. but also, just because there are dicks out there who are so insecure about a woman beating them that they do the immature things you describe, doesn't mean that healthy, respectful, productive, forward-looking competition between genders can't or shouldn't happen. in fact, I think running is one of the only places it can. I guess what I'm mostly angry about is that we even need to have this conversation. I consider myself "sub-elite" as gross as that sentence is and the reason I feel strongly about this subject is because I'm excited to race professional women the same way I'm excited to race professional men. I'm fans of them, I follow their careers, I love the running world. I lined up at a half marathon next to Jordan hasay and right behind Galen rupp a few years back and it was so damn cool. at the same time, I wanted to beat both of them (and everyone else in the race) with every ounce of my heart. of course I didn't - hasay actually ran out of her mind that day - but the point is no one should be told to give up or hold back because someone else of a certain subgroup is running a similar time to them.

running after all is the great equalizer in life. we're all just suffering humans pushing our minds and bodies to the limit after 3.1 or 6.2 or 10 or 26.2 miles. there's a lot of beauty in that. there has to be a way to fight sexism and the disgusting bro behavior you describe while also preserving the beauty of our sport.

Along those lines, I've been drafted by females in the second half of a race, some have kicked past, some haven't. On more than one occasion a female has said "thanks for the pacing" or "that was a great race, thanks."

I'm apologize in advance as this may seem argumentative but in the specific scenario where a male is drafting a female athlete throughout the race and outkicking her, would this be viewed differently if it was a male drafting another male?

That type of strategy happens all the time so I'm curious as to the female perspective of that. I'm a male and I could see how that is viewed as creepy by a female to have this individual following them the whole race. I do think if a male is sandbagging and not running to their potential by following that female, then that is definitely weird. But there are certainly the situations where a female could be a perfect pacer and pull another individual along to a PR, etc.

It is interesting to think about male to male and female to female interactions as humans that are normalized but if it was the same interaction to the opposite sex, it would be viewed inappropriate, weird or some other negative connotation.[/quote]

I'm not describing drafting but deliberately slowing down and adjusting your race to run behind one specific person who isn't in the same prize category as you. I know this because sometimes when its happened, the man will seek me out in the finishing chute or after the race and tell me that!

Sometimes its happened that they will run along with you, attempting to give you "advice" or engage you in conversation.

I really am there just to race the other women.

The worst ones are where some silent guy runs right behind you the entire way, making no attempt to overtake even when you make it obvious he is making you uncomfortable and that he should overtake. One time it happened so badly that two other runners shouted at him and the race organiser spoke to him after the race.

Men who are there to race and whose only interest is in actually racing are no problem.

In general, women have to be careful walking or running alone that they aren't followed, so perhaps it easier for us to recognise it when it happens in a race. There are a lot of strange people out there. You are very fortunate that you haven't experienced this.

You're not getting anything from me. Leave me alone. I'm not interested in your race performance.