Houlihan, Jager, and Quigley - nandrolone theory

rogue runner wrote:

Missing the trials could be because they haven’t been able to use the supplement that had nandrolone to keep them healthy, but not from testing positive for it. This group trains so hard all of the time that they’re probably not necessarily shooting up epo, but taking random supplements to hold their bodies together. This random supplement was chosen poorly (with intent or without intent)

And yes I have also heard this non-American BTC athlete has tested positive for nandrolone. Under the legal limit, but tested positive nonetheless.

^This. BTC has been well-known to perform significantly higher volume and more intense training than other US-based distance groups. I think some of these supplements were turned to when the nagging injuries inevitably popped up with that training volume.

+1

Runner10287 wrote:

JosePublico wrote:

I seemed to recall that back in the day ,tendon problems were one of the issues claimed in warning people off of steroids. Maybe someone knows more about that.

With muscle possible adapting and responding faster than tendon to common cheater steroids , maybe that's another reason to have nandrolone in the cocktail. That's just WAG stuff. For the sake of the guessing/ brainstorming going on on this thread.

I’ve always held that opinion when it comes to the crash of tendon and ligament injuries in team sports like football where steroids use is rampant and obviously ignored for the most part.

It was never clear to me if the problems was steroids hurting tendons or that you could pack on 40lbs of muscle and generate more force than the tendons could handle. That probably isn't a distance runner issue.

"When a company is so big, I think there's that like, 'They can get away with anything' kind of thing. And it kinda makes me mad. Like, no they can't treat women and people and athletes the way that they do and get away with it without repercussions. That doesn't seem fair, and I think everyone knows how to like, get better and change and kind of mend mistakes, but when there's not any like, 'We made a mistake, we want to do better,' it doesn't seem fair. Like no, you have to pay the price for what you did. Anyway, I'm always an open book, and I hope people are excited to go on that journey with me.'

That's Colleen's podcast with Citius Mag, recorded in late April...I stan for Colleen.

An educated guess wrote:

I’m not sure how Jager, who has access to the best sports medicine clinicians in the world, can’t make it to the starting line after a year with no racing schedule. The only reasonable explanation is that Jerry trains the group like a college team and doesn’t individualize enough to each athlete. This would then be a big failure on Jerry’s part.

Yes and this is a great example of how Jager and Jerry are bad for this sport. For all of you out there who claim that youtube influencers are good for the sport, where is your outrage here when someone like Jager never races?

A lot of people give Jerry and BTC a hard time here for not racing enough.

ddidididid wrote:

Runner10287 wrote:

I’ve always held that opinion when it comes to the crash of tendon and ligament injuries in team sports like football where steroids use is rampant and obviously ignored for the most part.

It was never clear to me if the problems was steroids hurting tendons or that you could pack on 40lbs of muscle and generate more force than the tendons could handle. That probably isn't a distance runner issue.

You may be thinking of catabolic steroids (the anti-inflammatories). These weaken structural tissues.

You don't have to be injured to use nandrolone or an PED. Athletes use it to recover from hard training. PEDs enable the doped athlete to do quality/quantity training that non-doped athletes can't do without getting injured. Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong didn't use PEDs to recover from injuries, they used them to get more benefit and to do training non-doped athletes couldn't do. Before news of Houlihan's bust somebody posted about an extremely hard BTC workout that had GDS and Schweizer bent over gasping while Houlihan did the workout with no problem. Now we know why.

jewbacca wrote:

Come on, does anyone really believe the burrito defense? Of course Shelby was doping. That was clear from her performances last summer. I'll throw Schweizer under that bus as well, cause there's no way she's capable of 14:26 without aid.

Have we forgotten Jager showing up on the "likely doped" list that leaked a couple years ago? I doubt the OP's theory is correct. It's way more likely that Shumacher is simply actively doping his athletes.

Yes. I agree.

If you’re neutral/objective/don’t care, this is a very obvious situation. Try to remove yourself from the sport for a second or ask your mom what she thinks.

The most simple answer is almost always the answer in the end.

I’m amazed how many on here have made up they’re minds based on what they want the truth to be, versus what is most plausible.

Tainted supplements to get that high of a nandrolone reading?! That’s quite a stretch, even for Letsrun

JBaller33 wrote:

rogue runner wrote:

Missing the trials could be because they haven’t been able to use the supplement that had nandrolone to keep them healthy, but not from testing positive for it. This group trains so hard all of the time that they’re probably not necessarily shooting up epo, but taking random supplements to hold their bodies together. This random supplement was chosen poorly (with intent or without intent)

And yes I have also heard this non-American BTC athlete has tested positive for nandrolone. Under the legal limit, but tested positive nonetheless.

^This. BTC has been well-known to perform significantly higher volume and more intense training than other US-based distance groups. I think some of these supplements were turned to when the nagging injuries inevitably popped up with that training volume.

This level of trolling is disgusting. Stop deflecting with all these random make believe stories to sow confusion. According to THEM, they never used nandrolone or ever heard of it! It doesn't matter anyway. Shelby's is banned and the rest of Burrito Truck Club is on the horizon. Good riddance to bad runners.

I'm glad I scrolled through this thread. I had never heard of that story about John Capriotti threatening to kill Danny Mackey. That's some wild ish. Who knew that running could be so gangsta?

Don't forget that HGH won't show up on a test. Test, used wisely, shouldn't pop any unusual levels either.

I have my suspicions about Mystery BTC Man's ex-GF too. Late bloomer, sudden improvement.

biggest red flag wrote:

inspectormorse wrote:

Interesting theory and does add up considering I hear another BTC athlete has tested positive for nandrolone in the last month. Their levels were low enough to be passed off as a contaminated supplement/food so the case was dismissed. They also recently posted as struggling with injury.

When Jerry said, "I've never heard of nandrolone" that sealed the deal for me. A flat out lie.

+1

In this Women's Running article years ago, she was a loner and had trouble making friends growing up. She does like HP and is a bit different, but I liked her because of that. She was her own person, and she overcame her rare disease and other issues to get to where she was at.

I'm not sure who she had issues with on the team.

Does anyone know why she doesn't get along with Kara Goucher?

https://www.womensrunning.com/culture/people/you-dont-know-shelby-houlihan/

Breakfast In Bed wrote:

Don't forget that HGH won't show up on a test. Test, used wisely, shouldn't pop any unusual levels either.

I have my suspicions about Mystery BTC Man's ex-GF too. Late bloomer, sudden improvement.

HGH is widely rumored to be what Peyton Manning (was), Tom Brady, and any other inexplicably old pro athlete still having success are on.

You are spot on. She moved out to LA after spending all that time in NY filming commercials. Not to mention all her IG posts from a new product every day. Doesn’t exactly look like a serious path to prepping for the Olympic. The day she left BTC she knew she was not going to the trials. Which, is totally fine. Just don’t act like you are and lie your way through.

I agree. Big coincidences usually have a back story.

Polygraphy is a thoroughly discredited pseudoscientific discipline.

Moreover, it is easy to defeat. You don't need to be a sociopath. You just have to understand how it works.

Congress tasked the National Academy of Sciences with investigating the validity of lie detectors back the early 2000s. The section on countermeasures (how to beat it) referenced a publication by a non-profit called AntiPolygraph.org.

The info on that site is eye opening. And everything (including the book on beating it) is free.

This is correct. Muscle has a much great blood supply than tendons, so it grows at a faster rate. You get strong so fast on the gear that the tendons don't have time to catch up. Increasing the possibility of torn tendons.

That said, Deca (no one calls it nandrolone) is much less aggressive than some of the massive bulking S-vitamins.

Below is an article on how it is believed to work. I'm a new user, so it won't let me post the link direct.

(put https) //

liinc.bme.columbia.edu/how-does-nandrolone-decanoate-help-joints-and-ligaments/

What's insane is the Deca is synonymous for easy detectability. Low level NYC mob associates working as bouncers knew to avoid it like the plague if they had any chance of being tested (e.g. applying to PD or corrections). This was common knowledge as far back as the 1990s, when testing was in its infancy.

I can't think of any illegal drug (recreational, performance enhancing, etc) that is detectable for a longer period of time. This is why I am having such trouble wrapping my head around this.

Caveat: Deca is traditionally an injectable drug. I don't believe that any of the versions produced by legit pharma are oral. From what I hear, some illicit users have found a way to take it orally. This appears to make it substantially less detectable.