Having listened to Bakken on a couple of podcasts, I’m not sure that what Magness has been putting out in his videos, is exactly on the same page as Bakken. Bakken is much closer to Sirpoc.
Bakken asked Magness to provide a blurb for the back cover of his book. Please stop trying to generate drama.
Having listened to Bakken on a couple of podcasts, I’m not sure that what Magness has been putting out in his videos, is exactly on the same page as Bakken. Bakken is much closer to Sirpoc.
Bakken asked Magness to provide a blurb for the back cover of his book. Please stop trying to generate drama.
You are a Magness fan boy, and always pop up in his defence, but don’t go over board!
Yes, it gives me woo woo pseudoscience vibes. I'm failing to see anyone else give it much weight, it but it appears to be at the center of everything Bakken.
My muscles feel the same everyday.
So your muscles feel the same the day after an all out 5k as they do after 2 days of tapering and easy runs?
When I say feel I mean by palpation. After a hard effort they definitely feel sore, stiff and tight but that's clearly from fatigue / damage.
When I poke, prod and squeeze there is no difference that I notice.
When I say feel I mean by palpation. After a hard effort they definitely feel sore, stiff and tight but that's clearly from fatigue / damage.
When I poke, prod and squeeze there is no difference that I notice.
Yeah there is no difference I notice either. I don't know if anyone remembers sirpoc talking about LFS. Where you sorting of guage how the legs feel on RPE scale, but before going into the next session.
I know he was only half joking, deliberately calling it "Legs F***ed Score" but I have actually found this useful. There's no real discernable way my muscles feel different, to poke, or touch - but the quality of just how my legs feel on a scale of 0-10 differs, just like RPE.
I wonder if essentially both of these guys are talking about the same thing, but Bakken has over- complicated it a bit or been a bit vague.
When I say feel I mean by palpation. After a hard effort they definitely feel sore, stiff and tight but that's clearly from fatigue / damage.
When I poke, prod and squeeze there is no difference that I notice.
Muscles being stiff is not the same as increased muscle tone? I ask, because I still have no clue what an increased muscle tone actually feels like.
Perhaps it's the same, I don't know either, I don't think anyone does.
Bakken says, he can squeeze and push the legs of a patient and tell their tone is all wrong. He says managing tone is crucial for injury prevention and performance.
The way he talks about it implys he does not just mean tone is a proxy for fatigue.
NSM is great because it's simple and easy to follow. LFS is a fantastic metric, muscle tone is confusing and subjective.
When I say feel I mean by palpation. After a hard effort they definitely feel sore, stiff and tight but that's clearly from fatigue / damage.
When I poke, prod and squeeze there is no difference that I notice.
Muscles being stiff is not the same as increased muscle tone? I ask, because I still have no clue what an increased muscle tone actually feels like.
According to the book: Stiffness and tone are different physical concepts, but they move together. Tone is the baseline tension, you can feel it in a relaxed muscle. Stiffness is the resistance to actual work. Then there's also the 3rd parameter: elasticity, which is the muscles ability to return to its former state after the work.
Tone+stiffness should be moderate and elasticity should be high in a optimal muscle. The extreme other end is if you get tingles or cramps at night, where all three have collapsed.
According to the book: Stiffness and tone are different physical concepts, but they move together. Tone is the baseline tension, you can feel it in a relaxed muscle. Stiffness is the resistance to actual work. Then there's also the 3rd parameter: elasticity, which is the muscles ability to return to its former state after the work.
Tone+stiffness should be moderate and elasticity should be high in a optimal muscle. The extreme other end is if you get tingles or cramps at night, where all three have collapsed.
We are so deep into the weeds here. It's hard to think how any of this applies to myself, a 45 year old hobby jogger or how to even apply it.
What next, a durometer of sorts to check on my muscles before a workout?
Sorry for being over negative, but honestly, it's all a little silly. Isn't the whole idea of this thread that all of this stuff is very easy to understand and apply?
We are so deep into the weeds here. It's hard to think how any of this applies to myself, a 45 year old hobby jogger or how to even apply it.
What next, a durometer of sorts to check on my muscles before a workout?
Sorry for being over negative, but honestly, it's all a little silly. Isn't the whole idea of this thread that all of this stuff is very easy to understand and apply?
But surely that's the point, you don't have to if you don't want to. Just follow what Sirpoc says in the book.
If Bakken is right, then the Sirpoc method is already a Bakken endorsed way of controlling training intensity and therefore moderating muscle tone appropriately.
If Bakken is wrong, then the Sirpoc method is still a great way of managing training load and intensity that already delivers for many other reasons.
So as long as you stick to the idea in the Sirpoc book, you can't really go wrong.
According to the book: Stiffness and tone are different physical concepts, but they move together. Tone is the baseline tension, you can feel it in a relaxed muscle. Stiffness is the resistance to actual work. Then there's also the 3rd parameter: elasticity, which is the muscles ability to return to its former state after the work.
So, kinda like the father, son, and holy ghost, eh?
We are so deep into the weeds here. It's hard to think how any of this applies to myself, a 45 year old hobby jogger or how to even apply it.
What next, a durometer of sorts to check on my muscles before a workout?
Sorry for being over negative, but honestly, it's all a little silly. Isn't the whole idea of this thread that all of this stuff is very easy to understand and apply?
I'm going to be honest and I'm happy to be flamed, but this is how I feel:
I don't think Bakken's book is very good for your average runner. I don't think he should have tried to make it like that. It's very confusing at times, there's contradictions and the whole muscle tone is a rabbit hole now people are going to way overthink.
It's tried to clean everything in to make it for everyone and I honestly think that is a mistake. You are now going to have 40+ min 10k runners doing double threshold. Not just double runs, double threshold.
What next, a durometer of sorts to check on my muscles before a workout?
It's called a myotonometer, and there are even inexpensive commercial versions available.
What's lacking is any scientific agreement on the meaning of the term "muscle tone", and in particular how it relates to running.
Measuring leg spring stiffness and/or applying tensiomyography might also provide interesting data in this context. You can do the former using a Stryd, but the only commercial system for measuring the latter is about $20k.
I'm going to be honest and I'm happy to be flamed, but this is how I feel:
I don't think Bakken's book is very good for your average runner. I don't think he should have tried to make it like that. It's very confusing at times, there's contradictions and the whole muscle tone is a rabbit hole now people are going to way overthink.
It's tried to clean everything in to make it for everyone and I honestly think that is a mistake. You are now going to have 40+ min 10k runners doing double threshold. Not just double runs, double threshold.
Keep quiet and don't say these things out loud. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
I'm going to be honest and I'm happy to be flamed, but this is how I feel:
I don't think Bakken's book is very good for your average runner. I don't think he should have tried to make it like that. It's very confusing at times, there's contradictions and the whole muscle tone is a rabbit hole now people are going to way overthink.
It's tried to clean everything in to make it for everyone and I honestly think that is a mistake. You are now going to have 40+ min 10k runners doing double threshold. Not just double runs, double threshold.
Scandinavians tend to trust their fellow man to both be able to think and be responsible .. where as some other cultures tend to go "No no ... Everyone is too stupid and likely to f*** up. Better tell them exactly what to do and not trust them to think/experience"
For me US style books are often practically unreadable cause they tend to use 500 pages to say stuff that could be said in 100 pages and on every other pages write "This is actually rocket science and best left alone to the pro's" .. Add to that unnecesarry chapters on foam rolling and what not.
According to the book: Stiffness and tone are different physical concepts, but they move together. Tone is the baseline tension, you can feel it in a relaxed muscle. Stiffness is the resistance to actual work. Then there's also the 3rd parameter: elasticity, which is the muscles ability to return to its former state after the work.
So, kinda like the father, son, and holy ghost, eh?
Anyway, good to see that you have faith.
Apperently science has faith enough for articles to be published on muscle tone, stiffness and elasticity with regards to elite cyclists ??
Muscle tone and stiffness decreased after a very intense and exhausting cycling endurance competition. Basal elasticity improved immediately after the race and continued this trend until the end of the week. More research is...
I’ve read Sirpoc’s book and am most of the way through Bakken’s. While double T is obviously a large part of the book, I didn’t perceive it as “necessary.” Bakken just sees it as the optimal way to maximize load IF you can tolerate the volume and have enough time in your schedule. Where I think it is particularly interesting is with the “X” session that is absent in Sirpoc’s iteration. Doing higher intensity hills is a safe way to maintain power and ability to produce lactate! There was a recent episode of The Endurance Lab podcast with Marco Langon (google him if you don’t know!) where he described this well. It’s important to build your LT with ~2-3mmol training but if you don’t maintain the higher lactate sessions (short hills or flat speed) in small doses, there will be a decline in performance despite lower lactate at LT. Based on what I’ve seen from Magness, he would agree wholeheartedly!
TLDR… you can probably get pretty fit on singles with 2 sub threshold sessions and an “X” session of short hills, especially if you have plateaued on standard NSM.
