Sub 1:50 800m Training

I want to expand a bit more on the comment that drills/plyos etc are extras...

This is Very true. They are NOT a substitute for a tremendous amount of running work.

Think of running and two motions. One is driving you leg and generating forward power. Obviously the most important.

The second motion is picking your foot up and driving your knee forward to complete the next footstrike -- pulled through by the "carriage" muscles like the hip flexor, adductor, and hamstring.

Drills really work on the second motion, without adding more footstrike stress to your weekly regime -- you are trying to sneak in extra work without the pounding. Very important to being able to hold form and turnover when in lactic acidosis...

Plyos,hills, weightlifting...all just working basic footdrive power with less repitition or joint stress...

At the elite level it is trying to get a great deal of work done just inside the envelope where you break down and get injured.

For HS 800m runners, I think just hills for basic power and a short drill routine done on distance days is probably enough...they should be working just on their training load..increasing it year by year gradually. I wouldnt make the mistake of just lifting and doing a bunch of drills; you will run a decent 100m but fall off after 400m..

ASpring wrote:

I'm a 400/800 guy with PRs of 51.4 and 2:00, I have never done any more than about 25 miles a week, does this set up look good for me?

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Your 400m time is vastly superior to your 800m time, so work on longer intervals, tempos, long hills, and bump your mileage gradually. Even 40-45 miles per week, rather than 25, will allow you to do more volume of strength-endurance work, which is necessary to improve your 800m time. Again, gradually elevate your milage (like 2-3 miles per week, in order to avoid injuries.

Over the next year elevate your mileage in tiers, and soon enough you'll find a level that is just right. If you could hit 50 miles per week by next spring and still do all the necessary strength-endurance running, as described below; you'll run much faster over 800m than you have in the past.

Suggested strength-endurance workouts for 800m runners:

A) Run short intervals in sets; at moderate speeds. Example, let's say you can run 23.4 for the open 200m. Add 30% to that and run sets of 4-5 reps. Example: Run three, building to four and then five, sets of 4 x 200m at 30.4 seconds (jog 100m recoveries between reps; jog 400m recoveries between sets).

B) Medium Length intervals: 4 building to 8 x 600m at 3k speed (jog-float 400m recoveries) or 4 building to 8 x 800m at 5k pace (jog 400m recoveries)

C) Longer Intervals: 1000m or 1200m reps at 8k pace (possibly about 4-5 miles worth)

Tempos: Run 3-miles, building gradually to 5 miles at 5k pace plus about 20-25 seconds per mile + striders.

Other than that, retain your sprint speed with 6-8 x 50-75m once a week; while you develop strength-endurance.

The Differtial: Aim for 2.2 as the ratio between your 400m and 800m time. Unless you have crazy-fast 400m time, a ratio of 2.2 is a good one to shoot for. Example: 51.4 (400m time) * 2.2 = 1:53.08 (800m).

Regards,

Tinman

Hey OldSub4

When you dealt with weights, did you find it better to do it before your run or afterwards. And how much time before or after your run did your weight workout occur?

Thanks in advance.

If you run cross country in the fall, what is the ideal indoor racing plan to get you ready to run a fast 800 outdoors?

1) Race miles and 1000's as a transition from XC to the 800?

OR

2) Race 400's, 500's (and 600's if you can find them) to work on your underside speed?

Let's say that with either option you would be maintaining your endurance and decent mileage. Which will yield better outdoor results?

blmrun wrote:

Hey OldSub4

When you dealt with weights, did you find it better to do it before your run or afterwards. And how much time before or after your run did your weight workout occur?

Thanks in advance.

I would try to separate weights and running sessions as much as possible. If you have to put them within 4 hours of eachother, I would run first and do weights later. For the elites, we would somedays run in the AM, run in the PM and do weights around 10pm before going to bed.

Main thing is not to do weights just before you run.

XC 800 guy wrote:

If you run cross country in the fall, what is the ideal indoor racing plan to get you ready to run a fast 800 outdoors?

1) Race miles and 1000's as a transition from XC to the 800?

OR

2) Race 400's, 500's (and 600's if you can find them) to work on your underside speed?

Let's say that with either option you would be maintaining your endurance and decent mileage. Which will yield better outdoor results?

Best thing is not to race 3 seasons in one year, but if you must, I would run longer distance in the indoors. Mile and 1000s. You dont want to tune up your speed early on accident...

Hi

I read this from Nixon Kiprotich

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Basic Q & A about 800m training

'anaerobically' - in order for the leg muscles to exert maximal power during the race

Q: So, should 800-metre runners carry out special work- outs in order to lift their lactate thresholds?

A: No

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and this

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Q: Is having a high lactate threshold important for the 800-metre runner?

A: Not necessarily. In an endurance runner, a high threshold is critical -so that the runner never strays too far above threshold when running 5Ks, 10Ks, and marathons. The 800-metre runner doesn't have to worry about roaming above threshold; he/she is always far above threshold during races. In fact it' s important for the 800-metre competitor to be able to generate a lot of lactate by producing ample amounts of energy

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do people agree? and if so what are the implications for training?

Well, OldSub4's coach and entire coaching history seems to disprove that assertion as universally reliable.

Second, yes, the elite 800-meter runner needs to produce large amounts of lactate. . . but he needs to go do it going through 600 in 1:18 or whatever, NOT doing at 60/400. If you can run a 50 second quarter and you produce "large amounts of lactate" to run 2:00, you're doing something wrong.

Can you expand your answer please CraigMac? I am not following.

CraigMac4h wrote:

Well, OldSub4's coach and entire coaching history seems to disprove that assertion as universally reliable.

Second, yes, the elite 800-meter runner needs to produce large amounts of lactate. . . but he needs to go do it going through 600 in 1:18 or whatever, NOT doing at 60/400. If you can run a 50 second quarter and you produce "large amounts of lactate" to run 2:00, you're doing something wrong.

Not sure which part, but by the first part, I mean that OldSub4 and his training partners noticed DRAMATIC increases in performance when they added workouts specifically targeted to improve their aerobic strength- the cutdowns he mentioned, the tempo work, the other "threshold" stuff.

As for the second part, I meant that in order for an elite 800 runner to reach his potential, he needs to be able to produce tons and tons of lactate, especially in the last 200 of a race, in order to minimize deceleration. He also needs to be able to handle the tons of lactate he's already produced in the first 600 because the 800 isn't long enough for tons of buffering to take place.

Several guys with 52 second 400s and 2:00 800s have posted in this thread= their problem is not in their ability to produce lactate, it's that they're producing tons of lactate at 60/400 pace. If a coach gives workouts to target that threshold (which may not be traditional "lactate threshold" workouts like 20min at 60min race pace or whatever) then the athlete produces way less lactate at 60/400- now, at say, 15mmol (I'm pulling that number out of my ass, it's just an example) instead of traveling at 60/400, the athlete is traveling at 56/400 and runs 1:52.

My HS coach always drilled into my head that an 800 is all about who can get to 600m the freshest, not about leg speed.

Thanks CraigMac. I am "sad day" too.

BUt is a 20 min tempo run going to achieve what you are saying it is going to achieve. I can see v02 max work playing a role.

I favour longer steady runs over tempo runs that can be very stressful.

I didn't mean to imply that 20min tempo runs were the only way to improve threshold- far from it. For a low-mileage 800 runner, though, a 6 mile run with the last 3 miles up-tempo might be all they can handle at first.

Personally, for "tempo" training, I've rarely done the fast 20min runs that "tempo" traditionally defined. But even though 8miles at a slightly more relaxed uptempo pace might be more beneficial, for the low-mileage 800 guy who calls 7mi his "long run," doing 3miles faster is going to be much easier (at first) than doing 8 a little slower.

HI,

Very interesting reading!

I find it problematic to train for the 800's. I just come back from injury and did 2.05 with two track sessions and a background with around 30miles a week, including some intervals and fatlek e.g. 10x2 min.

In the last months, i have increased the track sessions and decreased volume (15miles). Maybe I need to run more to keep up my VO2max?

Track sessions are typically:

10x200 @~28.1 2min rest

5x400 @ ~62s 3min rest

5x150 @ ~18.5 5min rest

I run 600's sparsely but have done a session 1x600 1x400 in 90's - 60s 15min rest.

Sometimes I do two track sessions a week. I felt confident to lower my 800 time to about 2.00, but went to 2.09 instead.(I have done such a time without specific training, 3 days jog a week). Obviously i trained too hard?

I feel a bit confused. Shall I focus more on distance and longer intervals or what is my problem??

Thanks

Steve

Steve, those are some very tough workouts for a 2:05-2:09 guy. 10x200 at probably 400 race pace. 5x400 at faster than 800 race pace. A 600 in 1:30? That's not a workout, that's a race for you.

I think you could probably dial things back a notch.

But more importantly, the point of this thread is that 800 success doesn't come from these types of workouts that are done the last month or two of the season. The 800 runner is made from the 8-10 months of endurance training that comes before these types of workouts.

So yes, you do need to do more VO2 max type stuff, in addition to more mileage, in addition to more tempo runs, etc. Keep in touch with your speed throughout your base and strength phases, then add the above types of workouts at the end.

Right,

I should focus on my VO2max. However, I build a base since september -08 with more distance and tempo-runs. Came out in april and did 36.30 on 10km. I went probably too hard into the speed workouts after this.

I have done 400m in 52.5 and felt comfortable doing 10x200 in 28s. But I find it very problematic to run a first lap relaxed in 60s. I'm not a fast guy, but around 12.0s in 100m, and with 36.30 in 10k, I should be able to go faster than 2.00. Especially with specific training for 800m.

Hello to all faithful readers of this thread. Thought I would give an update/season summary. My athletes have finished strongly. My best guy, a univ frosh just ran 3:52 for a big PR as well as 1:56 for an 800 PR this week. He is a late bloomer and came down from 4:01 and 2:00 from last year. My best girl came down from 2:21 to 2:15 (HS Senior) Another guy 4:00-3:54 and finally another guy 2:00-1:56.

My group followed most of the basic principles of this thread, so for some people who read and wonder whether any of the advice is good, I say it is, and applicable to almost all levels.

These last couple of weeks we sharpened without losing base, so one workout was 2k tempo plus 5x200m 26-28 for the boys and 31-33 for the girls.

Our specific speed workout was 2x600m 1:26 plus 3x200 28 with 30 sec rest, and for the girls, 1:39 plus 32.

I think overall everyone's endurance is still pretty good at the end of a long season.

My personal addition to the general guidelines are to add a 2k tempo run about every third week throughout the season. If kids can't run the expected time comfortably, it is a good warning that shape has slipped.

Best wishes to all.

Congratulations to you and your athletes!

This 2k tempo thing is intriguing- when you say "tempo" do you mean they do 2k at the same pace they would do 3-5 mile tempos in the early season? Or 2k at something like 10k effort? I like the idea of taking a little bit of tempo and then throwing some faster stuff on the end.

Good question. I am probably misusing the word tempo. 2k tempo is about 3k-5k speed. We also do 3k tempo which is 5k speed. Bottom line it is a comfortably hard effort. I am trying to get them to run as fast as they can without going into too much stress, because about 5-7 min later we are going to run something hard like 3x500@1500 pace with 75 sec rest.

2k at 3k pace- yikes! that'll get the blood flowin'! Even 3k at 5k sounds pretty tough- though I would guess you would be conservative about estimating their 3k and 5k speed, since it seems like your group is more a 800/1500 group. Still, though- very impressive stuff.