Who knows, if you aren't running 7 days a week, maybe you try to cram in more sub-T volume, maybe you push the pace more to the edge of LT2. Dude probably has some natural talent getting to 16:30, but most people aren't running a 15:00 5K on straight vanilla NSM running 7 days, much less running only 5 days a week with 2 days on a bike.
Vanilla NSM, is just vanilla NSM, tbh. There's really not much variation with what the most successful people have been doing with this. There's guys who do 1-2 days cross training but it's all relatively straightforward. 90-100 mins max of sub threshold, rarely people seem to bother with strides and everyone is running incredibly easily to buffer between workout days.
Asking what paces people run is largely irrelevant and once you know a guy's race time, you can probably work it out retroactively anyway.
The whole point of training like this is you don't really need to compare yourself to others or ask what the next guy is doing. We are all doing the same relative to the time we have available and our race speed.
I don’t understand the blow back for somebody asking a guy who’s run a pretty fast 5k about the variations that he’s made to his training. Maybe the dude has run 15:12 and he’s running 45 mins instead of 60 on his easy days. Maybe the sub-t days are longer. Or shorter. The cross training is interesting for a variety of reasons as different people have been implementing different workouts. I certainly hope Ezekiel responds with what his basic looks like, including the cross training.
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I don’t understand the blow back for somebody asking a guy who’s run a pretty fast 5k about the variations that he’s made to his training. Maybe the dude has run 15:12 and he’s running 45 mins instead of 60 on his easy days. Maybe the sub-t days are longer. Or shorter. The cross training is interesting for a variety of reasons as different people have been implementing different workouts. I certainly hope Ezekiel responds with what his basic looks like, including the cross training.
Running roughly 5.5 hours a week. It's usually just over an hour with my workouts taking into account sometimes I have to run a fraction longer than an hour to make it back home (15 mins cool down instead of 7-10) and dead on a 60 minute cap for easy. Sometimes stretch it out nearer 90 mins for the long run, but often nearer 75. This has slowly crept up from about 4 hours 40 running near the back of last summer.
Paces are just what is available in the book, based on time rather than the online calcs out there that all seemed to be based on early pages of this thread. Gotten my head around the idea now you can't beat yourself up when it's windy etc, just suck it up and run slower.
Easy run wise, around 62-67% of MHR seems to work for me. I did do a period of 72-75% for a couple of weeks, it's crazy how quickly you feel the fatigue from that. I live in a hilly area (although I have a flat route planned for workouts) and I'm walking up some 10%+ inclines. At first it felt silly, really silly to do this, but as per sirpoc says in the book, i now agree this creates intensity discipline. If you can do this you will stick to anything as this is really as " checking in" your ego as it gets.
Sirpoc has helped a lot with the shifting around days I have to do. Cycling is usually in a gym somewhere so I don't have power or power you can/would want to trust or use consistently. So that is based on HR which is quite complex, given HR for a lot of us is going to be totally out of sync with running. Again, I was very lucky sirpoc took pity on me and coached me through this in baby steps and now I have it dialled in. I usually extend these by around 25-30%. So if I had sub threshold day I would do 40-45 instead of 30. This usually takes me to about 8 hours a week. There have been a few weeks where i have been at home all week and I have ran all 7 days. But these are rare. But when I do, it's just a vanilla 7.5 hour week.
If I ever "double" I'll bring down the ride itself to 30 of sub t and use it how sirpoc has been using it to great success, as a primer for the evening running session, with his very limited mileage these days and still running almost 15 flat. Schedule is going to be difficult for m to really ever do doubles and again the man himself has given me a solution to tweak things up to make try and tease some more out whilst remaining sustainable. Which it definitely is, I feel great and it's the best I have felt for such an extended period.
It almost feels like a cheat code or a hack that I feel fresher than ever, day to day but I'm almost getting significantly faster. I would love someone to delve into this and explain it as this feeling seems to strike so many people.
However, NSM sounds easy but I do suspect I would have made a bit of a mess of this myself with too many tweaks, the wrong tweaks, easy days too hard or just pushing the intensity and ramping too fast overall, any or all of these I could have done I suspect and convinced myself "it'll be OK". Again, I can't thank sirpoc enough and I have no idea why he doesn't do this "full time" and just give up what sounds like a pretty strenuous job.
I would like to break 15 this year as I know there are a few who have training like this. My ultimate goal would be to run 29:XX in a 10k but for the moment I'm just tunnel visioned and focusing on the easy gains you can clearly grind away at training like this. In sirpoc's own words if I get to this level he told me to "get a proper" coach. The irony being, he doesn't understand I've had many of these so called "proper" coaches and they have gotten me nowhere near this level lol
Fair comments about "this is just vanilla NSM" because it is, with a few individual tweaks here and there that are relevant to just myself or situation I'm in with juggling stuff around and not always being able to follow the same pattern. Anyway, I hope someone finds this interesting. If it's just another "NSM vanilla post" feel free to totally ignore.
Thanks for the reply. Just wondering what are the adjustments you’ve made to use HR for the sub t and easy on the stationary bike?
I had been using my normal HR as a guide until sirpoc helped me out. He then helped me find roughly my max and roughly Lt1 and Lt2 without having to need power.
For me, max and Lt2 both sit about 7-8% lower on the bike currently, than running. That gap I doubt will close, on just a couple of hours a week riding. But the sessions themselves seem to be providing a great benefit, having just ran inconsistently before.
It makes sense, RPE I don't think is a great guide but if you had to ask me, a run at 125bpm feels about the same as a ride at 115bpm. Likewise, once I work a last rep where you are maybe brushing on the floor of LT2, at 179bpm for me, it feels around the same as 162-63 might on the bike. For my needs, it'll certainly be good enough to use this as my rough guide.
I think you’re being too humble. As someone who has been trying to find a way to add in cycling to NSM (I have a pretty bad injury history), your posts have been very helpful.
Interesting how Bakken notes how he used to be more explosive, a sprinter, & fast twitch when he was younger & now his muscle fibers changed to where he's more slow twitch now that he's older. (He cites cross country skiers.) I think this is more common than people think.
Interesting how Bakken notes how he used to be more explosive, a sprinter, & fast twitch when he was younger & now his muscle fibers changed to where he's more slow twitch now that he's older. (He cites cross country skiers.) I think this is more common than people think.
Part of me is naturally skeptical about this. However, it could explain why so many folks here in this thread at various points have posted about being hugely FT, but having great success using NSM. Potentially, they didn't know this change was in effect.
Interesting how Bakken notes how he used to be more explosive, a sprinter, & fast twitch when he was younger & now his muscle fibers changed to where he's more slow twitch now that he's older. (He cites cross country skiers.) I think this is more common than people think.
It has been known since the 1970s that our neuromuscular system steadily reorganizes over time, resulting in a slowing of muscle contractile properties.
At what % of MHR? I mean I've been doing 20 milers for 20 years and never at <70%!
20 years of 20 milers. I wouldn’t change a thing since it’s clearly working for you. You likely have more longevity than 99.5% of people who have posted here. This program is about repeatability and being in your 70s and running that distance, well you’ve got it figured out already, lol.
I did 20 today at 80% and that seemed about right. Took me 3:07. Otherwise I will stick with NSM workouts but I just can't go that slow that long. Or don't want to.
20 years of 20 milers. I wouldn’t change a thing since it’s clearly working for you. You likely have more longevity than 99.5% of people who have posted here. This program is about repeatability and being in your 70s and running that distance, well you’ve got it figured out already, lol.
I did 20 today at 80% and that seemed about right. Took me 3:07. Otherwise I will stick with NSM workouts but I just can't go that slow that long. Or don't want to.
What benefit does running at 80% for 3 hours have over running at 70% for 3 hours?
Why are people obsessed with miles ran? Your body doesn't know you ran 32 or 25k. Time on feet and the stimulus to force an adaption is all it knows
I don’t understand the blow back for somebody asking a guy who’s run a pretty fast 5k about the variations that he’s made to his training. Maybe the dude has run 15:12 and he’s running 45 mins instead of 60 on his easy days. Maybe the sub-t days are longer. Or shorter. The cross training is interesting for a variety of reasons as different people have been implementing different workouts. I certainly hope Ezekiel responds with what his basic looks like, including the cross training.
Running roughly 5.5 hours a week. It's usually just over an hour with my workouts taking into account sometimes I have to run a fraction longer than an hour to make it back home (15 mins cool down instead of 7-10) and dead on a 60 minute cap for easy. Sometimes stretch it out nearer 90 mins for the long run, but often nearer 75. This has slowly crept up from about 4 hours 40 running near the back of last summer.
Paces are just what is available in the book, based on time rather than the online calcs out there that all seemed to be based on early pages of this thread. Gotten my head around the idea now you can't beat yourself up when it's windy etc, just suck it up and run slower.
Easy run wise, around 62-67% of MHR seems to work for me. I did do a period of 72-75% for a couple of weeks, it's crazy how quickly you feel the fatigue from that. I live in a hilly area (although I have a flat route planned for workouts) and I'm walking up some 10%+ inclines. At first it felt silly, really silly to do this, but as per sirpoc says in the book, i now agree this creates intensity discipline. If you can do this you will stick to anything as this is really as " checking in" your ego as it gets.
Sirpoc has helped a lot with the shifting around days I have to do. Cycling is usually in a gym somewhere so I don't have power or power you can/would want to trust or use consistently. So that is based on HR which is quite complex, given HR for a lot of us is going to be totally out of sync with running. Again, I was very lucky sirpoc took pity on me and coached me through this in baby steps and now I have it dialled in. I usually extend these by around 25-30%. So if I had sub threshold day I would do 40-45 instead of 30. This usually takes me to about 8 hours a week. There have been a few weeks where i have been at home all week and I have ran all 7 days. But these are rare. But when I do, it's just a vanilla 7.5 hour week.
If I ever "double" I'll bring down the ride itself to 30 of sub t and use it how sirpoc has been using it to great success, as a primer for the evening running session, with his very limited mileage these days and still running almost 15 flat. Schedule is going to be difficult for m to really ever do doubles and again the man himself has given me a solution to tweak things up to make try and tease some more out whilst remaining sustainable. Which it definitely is, I feel great and it's the best I have felt for such an extended period.
It almost feels like a cheat code or a hack that I feel fresher than ever, day to day but I'm almost getting significantly faster. I would love someone to delve into this and explain it as this feeling seems to strike so many people.
However, NSM sounds easy but I do suspect I would have made a bit of a mess of this myself with too many tweaks, the wrong tweaks, easy days too hard or just pushing the intensity and ramping too fast overall, any or all of these I could have done I suspect and convinced myself "it'll be OK". Again, I can't thank sirpoc enough and I have no idea why he doesn't do this "full time" and just give up what sounds like a pretty strenuous job.
I would like to break 15 this year as I know there are a few who have training like this. My ultimate goal would be to run 29:XX in a 10k but for the moment I'm just tunnel visioned and focusing on the easy gains you can clearly grind away at training like this. In sirpoc's own words if I get to this level he told me to "get a proper" coach. The irony being, he doesn't understand I've had many of these so called "proper" coaches and they have gotten me nowhere near this level lol
Fair comments about "this is just vanilla NSM" because it is, with a few individual tweaks here and there that are relevant to just myself or situation I'm in with juggling stuff around and not always being able to follow the same pattern. Anyway, I hope someone finds this interesting. If it's just another "NSM vanilla post" feel free to totally ignore.
All the best everyone.
Amazing progress, congratulations.
Out of interest, which of the sub-threshold running workouts are you doing? And for the bike, are you aiming for sessions like 4×10 and 3×15, and 90mins for the easy ride?
Also do you track your load in Intervals.icu, and what do you think allowed Sirpoc to predict your current race pace so accurately—was it based on the paces you were hitting in your sub-threshold workouts?
Out of interest, which of the sub-threshold running workouts are you doing? And for the bike, are you aiming for sessions like 4×10 and 3×15, and 90mins for the easy ride?
Also do you track your load in Intervals.icu, and what do you think allowed Sirpoc to predict your current race pace so accurately—was it based on the paces you were hitting in your sub-threshold workouts?
I'm doing 10x3 every week and alternating between 5x6 and 3x10. If I do the 3x10 I will do 8x5 on the bike and if I run the 5x6 I will do 4x10 on the bike. I think I mentioned, these are all singles. I would reduce the bike volume if/when I go out doubles to just 30 a session.
I will note and I forgot, sirpoc had me do a sporadic x factor workouts on the bike, the worst and hardest of which was by far 10x1 mins with float recovery, this is something he had back from his time trialng days and i know has been mentioned here before. It's something I would be buried from running, so the bike is a nice opportunity to let loose. I have been doing that once every month if I haven't had a running race. So I probably have done it 3x total and it's just to replicate no racing to keep something once a month above threshold.
I track load reasonably diligently and ever since I surpassed my historic peak load I have gotten faster in general. It's not perfectly neat, but the indication of doing more and holding it consistently has meant my results continue to improve. This isn't particularly surprising to me as this was the whole appeal of the method to me in the first place, in that you can out grow previous fitness by grinding your way to success but without having to do crazy mileage.
In terms of predicting my race performance, it was mainly what I have been doing in workouts. He's given me two other predictions now and I ran within 5 seconds of both in a 5k and 10k after I sent him the course and got a weather forecast for the day. Workouts can give you a good idea of what you are then capable of in a race, especially if you take a bunch of them and average them out over a few weeks rather than just look at one session in isolation. Again, if he was to coach which I insist I think he should (he is a coach just won't admit it, look how many people have posted how he's worked with them), I believe a huge advantage is he has an amazing grasp of a runners fitness. I've spoken to him about some other runners you might see him interact with regular on Strava. For example, he told me before the 2:32 marathon guy who posted here after Seville, would run 2:32 in Seville.
This is a huge advantage, as it makes the confidence and pressure going into the race reduced which also then makes the race pacing plan sensible which will lead to better results.
I used to go into races as a 16:XX runner and have no idea really within a minute where I would land. Subthreshold workouts over such frequency and consistency seems to leave no surprises when it comes to racing.
And thanks for the congrats. I'm really happy with how things have gone and honestly couldn't be happier with where I am now. Especially as I have invested a decent amount of time and money into coaches who have promised me the world. When I first messaged sirpoc directly on the off chance he would reply and he did, he warned me this would be pretty boring, not a whole lot of fun and would probably take longer than any coach had told me before that progress would, but if I could stay healthy and consistent there's a good chance I can break 15 at some point.
I did 20 today at 80% and that seemed about right. Took me 3:07. Otherwise I will stick with NSM workouts but I just can't go that slow that long. Or don't want to.
What benefit does running at 80% for 3 hours have over running at 70% for 3 hours?
Why are people obsessed with miles ran? Your body doesn't know you ran 32 or 25k. Time on feet and the stimulus to force an adaption is all it knows
I guess that after 40+ marathons my body "knows" the pace it likes to run at for this distance 4 weeks out from a race.
