Armstronglives, are you aware that Kenyan athletes lived two following Olympic boycotts (1976 like all the African Countries against the aparteid of South Africa, and 1980 because connected with Western Countries like US that refused to participate in Moscow), in a period with Commonwealth Games every 4 years and nothing else ? Not only, but in the same period there was a conflict between Ethiopia and Kenya that reduced possibilities and motivation of their athletes ? Do you really think that an athlete like Henry Rono couldn't be able to win Gold in Olympic or to better more times the WR of 5000 and 10000m, if there was continuity in his competitions and in his training ?
This is like the myth that black people were not talented for swimming or playing tennis. The main reason is that black people were not allowed to go in some pool (also not allowed to use the same buses of white people...) and starting to play tennis required to spend a lot of money, so the only exception was Ashe, but after there were the Williams sisters, and some other good player.
Please, stop to compare sports different for equipment, facilities and local interest, without looking at social problems. Of sure, the European Countries didn't have to face, in the period 1970-1983 (date of the first edition of WCh), the same social problems of African Countries.
Renato, you try to ARGUE with a person who prefers to lie over and over again (verifiable in this thread) before just to agree to something undeniably true (that Kenya already before 1980 was enormous successful).
10 world records by Kenyans before 1980 for him became 2.
In addition to this, he calls OTHERS to be liars even when they just write verifiable facts.
In addition to this he is too stupid to just look for a simple Olympic champion, for weeks.
Why do you keep on with this reference to Russia, no matter how many times it's pointed out how stupid it is?
So the ramshackle mess of a country has been doping it's most likely medalists, and rather effectively in women's middle-distance and race walking, and you think because they aren't competitive in marathon running, that it means EPO doesn't work? FFS. What evidence do you have that Russia has been doping their marathon runners? How many full-time marathon runners do you think Russia has compared to East Africa? Are you capable of understanding that marathon running is probably around the 187th attractive sport for young Russian athletes, whereas it's number 1 by a massive margin in East Africa? As I type this the temperature is -6c in St Petersburg. It's -1c in Moscow (quite mild for this time of year). It's 19c in Iten, Kenya.
Because you keep suggesting Kenya is the worst, while the example of Russia disproves it.
Russian women compete in the marathon, including Liliya Shobukhova. With the men, either Russia doesn't dope them, because they know it won't work, or they do dope them, and it doesn't work.
The Russian marathon record is 2.09 which was set more than decade ago at the time it was quite respectable and could even win a major medal. I have no doubts some where in Russia somebody is capable of bettering that time. I just don't think Russian youth care to do the sport at a competitive level enough to find the one or two guys that could run times faster than that.
If you look at the track records as a whole most of the records are old and if they are doped aren't doped with modern protocols for doping but nobody is beating these times which probably means people with talent aren't doing the sport in numbers to find the athlete to better these times.
Armstronglives, are you aware that Kenyan athletes lived two following Olympic boycotts (1976 like all the African Countries against the aparteid of South Africa, and 1980 because connected with Western Countries like US that refused to participate in Moscow), in a period with Commonwealth Games every 4 years and nothing else ? Not only, but in the same period there was a conflict between Ethiopia and Kenya that reduced possibilities and motivation of their athletes ? Do you really think that an athlete like Henry Rono couldn't be able to win Gold in Olympic or to better more times the WR of 5000 and 10000m, if there was continuity in his competitions and in his training ?
This is like the myth that black people were not talented for swimming or playing tennis. The main reason is that black people were not allowed to go in some pool (also not allowed to use the same buses of white people...) and starting to play tennis required to spend a lot of money, so the only exception was Ashe, but after there were the Williams sisters, and some other good player.
Please, stop to compare sports different for equipment, facilities and local interest, without looking at social problems. Of sure, the European Countries didn't have to face, in the period 1970-1983 (date of the first edition of WCh), the same social problems of African Countries.
In the '76 Olympics, boycotted by the Kenyans (and other Africans), which Kenyans were going to win any of the following?
Armstronglives, are you aware that Kenyan athletes lived two following Olympic boycotts (1976 like all the African Countries against the aparteid of South Africa, and 1980 because connected with Western Countries like US that refused to participate in Moscow), in a period with Commonwealth Games every 4 years and nothing else ? Not only, but in the same period there was a conflict between Ethiopia and Kenya that reduced possibilities and motivation of their athletes ? Do you really think that an athlete like Henry Rono couldn't be able to win Gold in Olympic or to better more times the WR of 5000 and 10000m, if there was continuity in his competitions and in his training ?
This is like the myth that black people were not talented for swimming or playing tennis. The main reason is that black people were not allowed to go in some pool (also not allowed to use the same buses of white people...) and starting to play tennis required to spend a lot of money, so the only exception was Ashe, but after there were the Williams sisters, and some other good player.
Please, stop to compare sports different for equipment, facilities and local interest, without looking at social problems. Of sure, the European Countries didn't have to face, in the period 1970-1983 (date of the first edition of WCh), the same social problems of African Countries.
In the '76 Olympics, boycotted by the Kenyans (and other Africans), which Kenyans were going to win any of the following?
Indeed. With impunity. The arguments about Kenyans et al and the ineffectiveness of PED's with regards to their performances really does seem ridiculous, or at least redundant at this point.
Maybe you don't know what there is BEFORE thye competition. Put yourself in the situation of a kenyan athlete in that period : 12 YEARS WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY TO RUN IN OLYMPICS, the only possibility were Commonwealth Games every 4 years.
In that period, no professional athletics, so no official money in competition, the number of meetings was very poor, so how possible was to find the right motivation for tough and continuous training without competition ?
Which was the reason because the performances of Kenyan athletes were slower than the one in the period 1965 - 1975 ? Why Kenya didn't produce in that period other athletes like Kip Keino, Ben Jipcho, Mike Boit, Wilson Kiprugut ?
Your myopia when you look at numbers without knowing the background clearly shows you always speak about something you don't know, so all your arrogant posts are without any foundation. Without knowing the CAUSES of any phenomen, it's not possible to understand and explain the EFFECTS.
These remarks from 1976 by the famed Finnish middle-distance coach Kari Sinkkonen, who visited Kenya to look at their training methods, are remain relevant to explain the absence of Kenyans in 1970s:
"There is no great organisation on track & field sports, and therefore it is very random, when top elite athletes emerge. Understandably it is known in Kenya that high altitude training affects oxygen uptake and therefore performance, but - unlike in Finland - there is no system to track promising young athletes. In Kenya, a talented young athlete enters under systematic training most likely by an accident... At the so-called running tracks, there can be stones that are equivalent to fist in size, I couldn't make a single one of our runners to run at those tracks...
His observations were also likely quite accurate, because no poster debunked or questioned them nor quoted any running specialist from the 1970s with a diverging opinion. When I initially posted the quoted, it was the usual "I don't like that quote" / "I don't like Aragon" 😭 thumbs down with zero value added.
Maybe you don't know what there is BEFORE thye competition. Put yourself in the situation of a kenyan athlete in that period : 12 YEARS WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY TO RUN IN OLYMPICS, the only possibility were Commonwealth Games every 4 years.
In that period, no professional athletics, so no official money in competition, the number of meetings was very poor, so how possible was to find the right motivation for tough and continuous training without competition ?
Which was the reason because the performances of Kenyan athletes were slower than the one in the period 1965 - 1975 ? Why Kenya didn't produce in that period other athletes like Kip Keino, Ben Jipcho, Mike Boit, Wilson Kiprugut ?
Your myopia when you look at numbers without knowing the background clearly shows you always speak about something you don't know, so all your arrogant posts are without any foundation. Without knowing the CAUSES of any phenomen, it's not possible to understand and explain the EFFECTS.
Two boycotts in a row definitely have had a bad influence on Kenyan performances (missing role models) , but after the Munich Olympics in 72 nobody knew the next chance for Kenyans to compete at the Olympics is 12 years away. Similarly after the Montreal Olympics in 76. Kenya still was successful from 800 - 10000 in the years 77 - 79 (5 world records, 3/3/2 medals at the Commonwealth games (+ a 400H gold), victories galore on the international cercuit).
Just after the Moscow Olympics in 80, Kenya fell behind (1/1/2 at the 82 Commonwealth games, no medals at the 83 World champs).
Is anyone else sick of hearing how these East Africans are just genetically superior? They are in area where getting drugs is way easier than other parts of the world and in areas where drug testing isn’t even a thing. It’s awfully funny people think these guys are just better athletes. The only thing they are doing that Americans aren’t is getting away with doping. These guys debuting at times faster than the world record times ten years ago makes zero sense, humans didn’t all of a sudden evolve to be faster in the last 10-20 years. The entire area needs banned from participating in the Olympics until they get good testing.
For the sake of convenience if we look at the top non-African runners and those runners who were not born in Africa or of African heritage (Amdouni 2:05:22 and others) once again for the sake of convenience then we get this on the world list of the fastest belonging to non-African runners. This is from the world all time list. In the list of “African heritage runners” I will put Brazilian runners (Ronny Da Costa and Do Nascimento) also for the sake of convenience. Once again I’m doing this from a convenience point of view not from a racist point of view or exclusionary point of view. Let’s keep calm and our heads above water.
Top Non African or African heritage runners. All Time List.
I will stick my neck out and claim that I am 99% certain that these top non-African or African heritage runners ever doped. Of course I can’t prove it but in life sometimes one has to stick one’s neck out and claim something even without irrevocable proof. Now if you can show any shade on any of the above named guys please do so, but I don’t think you will.
Super shoes have been a game changer but not for every athlete.
If you look at the case of the two Japanese, Suzuki and Y.Shi(?)ara, I firmly believe that super shoes helped them quite a bit but unquantifiable. Osako did not need super shoes to produce his time because he was a track stud and track studs I believe have a firm advantage in running fast over all distances, including marathon. Moen is and was a workhorse who showed that work ethic can trump native talent. Also Norway is leading in training methods and sport science which undeniably proved advantageous to the strong legged Norwegian.
Galen Rupp’s record speaks for itself. In fact a guy who can run 2644 for 10,000 m on the track should in theory be able to run around 2:01:00 or 2:02:00 for the marathon if focusing on that event. For the American, Rupp, never really focused on time but rather titles.
These remarks from 1976 by the famed Finnish middle-distance coach Kari Sinkkonen, who visited Kenya to look at their training methods, are remain relevant to explain the absence of Kenyans in 1970s:
"There is no great organisation on track & field sports, and therefore it is very random, when top elite athletes emerge. Understandably it is known in Kenya that high altitude training affects oxygen uptake and therefore performance, but - unlike in Finland - there is no system to track promising young athletes. In Kenya, a talented young athlete enters under systematic training most likely by an accident... At the so-called running tracks, there can be stones that are equivalent to fist in size, I couldn't make a single one of our runners to run at those tracks...
His observations were also likely quite accurate, because no poster debunked or questioned them nor quoted any running specialist from the 1970s with a diverging opinion. When I initially posted the quoted, it was the usual "I don't like that quote" / "I don't like Aragon" 😭 thumbs down with zero value added.
According to Coevett, Kenya was the only nation with professional athletes in these days. All the rest (including Germany) were pure amateurs.
Their success was possible because their athletes were professionales in an era of amateurism. But he also denies that they were successful at all. Good to have deep thinkers like him.
Is anyone else sick of hearing how these East Africans are just genetically superior? They are in area where getting drugs is way easier than other parts of the world and in areas where drug testing isn’t even a thing. It’s awfully funny people think these guys are just better athletes. The only thing they are doing that Americans aren’t is getting away with doping. These guys debuting at times faster than the world record times ten years ago makes zero sense, humans didn’t all of a sudden evolve to be faster in the last 10-20 years. The entire area needs banned from participating in the Olympics until they get good testing.
For the sake of convenience if we look at the top non-African runners and those runners who were not born in Africa or of African heritage (Amdouni 2:05:22 and others) once again for the sake of convenience then we get this on the world list of the fastest belonging to non-African runners. This is from the world all time list. In the list of “African heritage runners” I will put Brazilian runners (Ronny Da Costa and Do Nascimento) also for the sake of convenience. Once again I’m doing this from a convenience point of view not from a racist point of view or exclusionary point of view. Let’s keep calm and our heads above water.
Top Non African or African heritage runners. All Time List.
I will stick my neck out and claim that I am 99% certain that these top non-African or African heritage runners ever doped. Of course I can’t prove it but in life sometimes one has to stick one’s neck out and claim something even without irrevocable proof. Now if you can show any shade on any of the above named guys please do so, but I don’t think you will.
Super shoes have been a game changer but not for every athlete.
If you look at the case of the two Japanese, Suzuki and Y.Shi(?)ara, I firmly believe that super shoes helped them quite a bit but unquantifiable. Osako did not need super shoes to produce his time because he was a track stud and track studs I believe have a firm advantage in running fast over all distances, including marathon. Moen is and was a workhorse who showed that work ethic can trump native talent. Also Norway is leading in training methods and sport science which undeniably proved advantageous to the strong legged Norwegian.
Galen Rupp’s record speaks for itself. In fact a guy who can run 2644 for 10,000 m on the track should in theory be able to run around 2:01:00 or 2:02:00 for the marathon if focusing on that event. For the American, Rupp, never really focused on time but rather titles.
Note I have to amend the Japanese runner’s name Yuta (Sh - something “ara”) because if I print his full name on the computer it comes up as “profanity” and so I cannot post so I’ve amended his name but you will find him on the list.
I will stick my neck out and claim that I am 99% certain that these top non-African or African heritage runners ever doped.
Really? Osako and Rupp were both coached by cheating Salazar. I am over 99% certain that you are incorrect.
I can't help but notice that the best of them (Suzuki with 2:04:56) is only on place 77, a whopping 3:47 behind the WR.
Sal did not cheat but pushed what was permissible. That is not cheating. It is pushing the boundaries of the permissable. He never broke the rules. Osako and Rupp, from all the evidence we have are most likely as clean as whistles.