LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

how many olympians has Jack Daniels coached?

wasn't Lisa Martin coached by JD?

FYI, Zero, I copied this bio info on Dr. Daniels from:

http://running.syr.edu/column/19990913.html

"A two-time Olympian and medalist in the modern pentathlon, Daniels turned his attention from competition to research in the early sixties. In the years that followed, he worked with a number of elite athletes, from milers Jim Ryun and Mary Slaney, to marathoners Joan Benoit and Jerry Lawson. He applied his findings into a successful training system at Cortland, credited with 8 national team championships, 25 individual titles and 110 All-America runners."

While he didn't directly coach all of those runners leading up to Olympic games, he has obviously been a big influence for decades. Many other successful runners, including Olympian Rod Dehaven, have self-coached using Daniels' Running Formula.

BTW, gang, if you haven't seen it, the 2nd edition DRF is really great. He really reworked the whole thing and made it even better.

Nobby,

I wouldn't be very happy in the Dart III. It's got too much rubber underneath, especially in the heel. But for someone who wants some cushioning, it strikes me as a pretty decent shoe as it's light and flexible and very basic.

It is similar to the sorts of things Barry wore when I stayed with him. I think price has become one of his major criteria for selecting a running shoe. As you probably know, they are very expensive in NZ, but Barry finds close out models or gets freebies. I actually sent him a pair of Moscow Limber Ups a few weeks ago. We have the same foot size. He seemed pleased to get them but I don't know if he's using them or not.

I always wanted a pair of EBs but they were always out of my price range.

Nobby,

I agree Arthur had a way of dealing with shoes that most of our current shoes would fail. My daughters used to say that I would walk into a sports/running shoe store and go along the wall of displayed shoes until I found one that would bend. They both still use that same technique.

Have you tried the Free? I have purchased my second pair. And must admit I love them. I have also been told that my foot plant is perfect (thanks Mom and Dad) with no roll, even a tad rigid. So perhaps I am gifted in that way. All through the 80's I ran in Reebok PBs, a racing shoe. I was probably one of the few people who were sad when Converse stopped production of the Lydiard models.

Glenn

Glenn:

I do the exact same thing! When my wife catches me doing that, she always yells at me saying, "You're gonna break the shoe!" I always think in my head, "If this breaks the shoe, then nobody should run in them..." but I never say that out lound in her face!

I have not run in Free yet though I have tried them on. Definitely the right direction FINALLY! But I still don't like that flaired out (and up) heel. I'm one of those lucky ones who could get Japaense racing flats and I'm more than perfectly happy with them (I can hear HRE druling over them...!).

I always thought (despite what Arthur always said), that there ARE some cases of foot planing disorder (if there's such term?). Some people DO have, either structurely or mechanically (caused probably by structural issues), landing problems. However, when people, like yourself, say that you're lucky because you don't have any problem; I always wondered, "Is it because he ran in those minimal shoes that he strengthened key muscles; or is he really born lucky?" I guess we'll never know (to convince non-believers) unless someone decides to do the study with twins with same structure and mechanics...

Nobby,

prior to my first full cycle of Hill Springing, I was a heel striker. I would wear out the heels of shoes before the forefoot midsole lost any of its ability to protect that part of my foot. As a result of hill springing and the accompanying strength, I am now a forefoot striker. I can count on 500 to 600 miles on even racing shoes. I never had my foot plant evaluated before hill springing, but I think that had a lot to do with my "perfect" foot strike. I am guessing that if ALL runners did Hill Springing, they to would develop the strength necessary to support a more efficient and "correct" foot plant.

So to me that is why Arthur thought that no one has a foot plant problem. Because all of the runners who he "knew" (worked with) did his hill routines and therefore had efficient foot plants. At least in my opinion.

I like the Frees. I have had the opportunity to see/test a future generation. I think Nike has it right this time.

Glenn

I'm not THAT loud when I drool.

Okay I know Snookie asked for an opinion as to who you would prefer to have as a coach, Lydiard or Daniels.

Are there any opinions on the more vast differences between Renato Canova and Lydiard?

Who would you rather have as a coach RC or AL?

HRE:

Thanks for being so subtle about pointing out my misspell!

Dr. E:

No disrespect to coach Canova at all; I've collected some of his comments here at letsrun threads as well as some other sites with great interest. Quite fascinating stuff. But, if I were to pick someone to coach me (or my kids), here's the bottom line question: "How can he/she best develop my potential?" I'd go back to what Lydiard said and kept saying over several decades; "Anybody can coach Kenyans because they have already developed their aerobic capacity." I don't mean to say people like Dr. Rosa or coach Canova are just "anybody". But this is what you COULD afford to do if you have a bunch of ambitious young athletes like Kenyans; you can take a handful, say, 20 of them; run a series of tests--be it scientific test or just test runs--and pick 4 or 5 who performed best; take them to Europe and throw them in some high quality races and they'd perform very well. Or look at yet another angle; take a handful of young studs from local high school who can run distance fairly well; give them bunch of interval type training and they'd set some PR and maybe even get some scholarship. But MY question then will be; "Where will they be in two years?" Ask yourself honestly, when's the last time you honestly remembered the name of a Kenyan champion, be it in some road race in the US or some major track meet in Europe and follow his footsteps to see how many more races in the coming years that he continuously performed well?

I'm a huge fan of Paul Tergat (I even brought his book to NYC marathon to be autographed, which I personally don't like to do, because I might have had a chance to meet him personally there) and one of the reasons for that is simply because of that--he's been at the top for so many years consistently. But I honestly don't remember who (which Kenyan) won the Boston marathon last year--or a year before that--and what they're doing now.

I'm not criticizing anybody or putting down what coaches of Kenyan athletes are doing at all. I saw a documentary of some exercise physiologists/coaches in Kenay and what they do and was totally fascinated by it. That really is coaching--the art, AND science, of peaking.

Lydiard, on the other hand, took young kids in his neighborhood, like Laurie King who he thought would drop dead if he ran a mile, and worked them for 2 or 3 or 5 years and turned them into local champion, or NZ champion or Olympic champion and world record holders. That, to me, is coaching AND developing.

Finnish Federation brought Lydiard to revive golden era of distance running in Finland in late 60s. He did. Now they brought a national coach of Kenya to turn them around once again. Nothing happened. Why?

Nobby,

I really struggled (well, not really struggled, but thought) about how to spell "drool."

Your comemnt here reminds me of the time we were hanging out with Bill Squire and Bill said something along the lines of "taking a Kenyan who's run 28:30 for 10k on his own and making him a 2:07 marathoner isn't much of coaching achievement. Taking some kid who's done a 2:23 marathon and getting him to 2:13 is coaching."

Probably the big reason I've always been such a Lydiard fan is that he took so many people from starting as kids who were nobodies to such high levels. I can't think of anyone who coaches Kenyans who does that, except perhaps Colm O'Connell.

...and taking a kid with short bow-legged (like Hodgie-san...or Seko!) and turn him into a 2:10 marathon runner IS coaching. (sorry, Hodgie-san, I thought this would get your attention!)

And by the same token, taking a 4:42 marathoner and making them into a 3:15 marathoner is coaching; which is part of the reason Arthur and Daniels and a handful of others (Squires) are more meaningful for we recreational enthusiasts than some other high-end coaches ( . . . or those evil-doers at Balco, to mention the minions of Sauron).

"Boulder runners Len Houle, Mike Sandrock and Marty Kibiloski premiere "Running Today" with the last interview given by late New Zealand coach Arthur Lydiard (7:30 am Saturday, Altitude)." That would be Dec 3,2005.

I don't have cable so will not be able to record this gem, but if you get this station it is probably worth checking out.

Glenn

hardeehaha Nobbiasan, fortunately for you & I marathon running is not a beauty contest!

Why, I would have placed you way up in the top 5!?

Nobby, Kim, Glenn, HRE, etc.

I like Lydiard's basic schedules, but I also like to pattern our workouts on more of a 14 day rotation because that seems to keep my athletes more 'mentally' fresh than a week in, week out of the same exact workout on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc.

Taking a schedule like the following, how would YOU guys tinker with it (if you even would) to perhaps make it into a 14 day schedule where you're getting the same thing done (other than just varying the time...I guess you could just vary where you're training, if that's a possibility) in those 2 weeks but not on a single week schedule.

Sorry, I know that was wordy. Please let me know how you would adapt this to a 2 week schedule, if you would at all.

Mon. 45-60 min. fartlek

Tues. 45-75 min. aerobic

Wed. 3K Time Trial

Thurs. 45-75 min. aerobic

Fri. 30-45 min. fartlek

Sat. 5K Time Trial

Sun. 60-90 min. aerobic

Thanks!!!

At last I can get on here !!!.

After 3 days I was beginning to go into withdrawl !

Seeing the comments about Kenyans/Coaching and Arthur I recall a few years ago (many !!) an 'old' athlete (not a distance runner) but a very astute individual saying.

"It's not Coaching it's thousands of years of evolution, if the Coaches do their jobs at a reasonable level. Man management more than technical expertise then these Kenyans are going to do some big damage"

Never a truer word was spoken.

I saw a piece about January last year written by Renato Canova (here on Letsrun) when they had some guys (In Kenya) out on a running about 25k run and school kids were joining them.

I really enjoyed it, it showed the shear joy of the kids just being part of the "culture".

I have often wondered did anyone show Arthur that article

I know Arthur was very much into establishing or trying to keep together a "Running culture". We had it here in NZ until the early 90's and still do, even if it is in small 'pockets' around the country. It is a battle but some of us are trying to rekindle that "culture".