Sunday Mail Has More Details on Paula's Blood Values and Off Scores + News She'll Put up £1m for an MRI lie detector

Read the Schumacher paper. In prolonged strenuous efforts in the heat, fluid goes out of the blood, as much as 10-20%, into the tissues and muscles. Some of it is lost as sweat. Causes hemoglobin measure to increase, without any real change in red blood cell count, leading to a false positive. Fluid goes back to normal within two hours.I understand Bayesian statistics, and did conclude from the beginning the values are not suited for ABP purposes, and the ABP didn't work at all before 2009. There are other complications, like personal thresholds, I have avoided discussing to keep things simpler.The RET% calculation above are a rebuttal, to which he answered, that RET% is not important anyway. Whatever his posts are, the reliability of the inputs cannot be assumed or guaranteed.

Jon Orange wrote:

Tell me, do you really think that is the product of a sane mind?

Friggin hilarious, and this coming from JO or should that be JR?

PS I've never once clicked on your lunatic PED thread (wrong I know to assume it's "lunatic") but please go back there, thanks.

Where is Wejo?

Is he still a believer?

Why is Paula the only one who experiences this plasma shift?

I am just going to keep posting this one until there are some comments on this little find about the IAAF and Paula's COZY relationship back in 2002. So far, rekrunner has had NO COMMENT!, since it does not support his view that the corruption at the IAAF only started after 2010. Wrong again, rekrunner. But he must be comfortable being WRONG AGAIN, since it keeps happening over and over and over and over and over again................

rekrunner keeps trying to argue about the old pre-2009 values, which didn't work. Then he wants to change the 12.0 hemoglobin value given by Paula herself in her biography..... (and by the way, she LEAVES OUT mentioning the MASSIVE INCREASE IN HEMOGLOBIN to 15.6 after the race, she just mentions discussing the low 12.0 anemic value, and how poor Paula had been sick, and on antibiotics, which must have caused this low value, but superPaula then went out and won the half-marathon WC anyway). That is real convenient that PAULA LEFT OUT THE MASSIVE HEMOGLOBIN INCREASE IN 2 DAYS TO AN ABOVE NORMAL VALUE OF 15.6!!!! Paula discusses her low hemoglobin value but leaves out the suspicious massive change and above normal high hemoglobin value. That is not being completely open, honest and transparent......... is it Paula???

There is a copy of this page in her biography on Ross Tucker's website. That is where I read it.)......Of course Paula's story and explanations have changed many times since her biography.........and rekrunner now wants to use the value of 12.8 from the IAAF and Dr. Saugy, and that also didn't work, so he goes back to MASSIVE LAB ERROR and nothing pre-2009 counts. But he keeps trying to explain the old values so that somehow Paula won't look like she did a blood transfusion, but his arguments are never going to work, yet he wants to endlessly argue about stuff like reticulocytes, which he probably never even knew existed until the last year.

Why does he want to argue till eternity about numbers that he won't even accept as real? We go on and on and on with scientific explanations, analysis, and calculations......and when the result is ONCE AGAIN what he doesn't want to accept........he once again goes to......LAB ERROR.......DOES NOT COUNT!....HA HA HA!.......this process will then repeat for eternity, because rekrunner will not ever accept any data or result which does not show Paula as clean and innocent!!!

It is like having an argument with an 8 year old. He can't understand that NOTHING CAN CHANGE HEMOGLOBIN VALUES BY 2.8g/dl or 3.6g/dl IN 2 DAYS EXCEPT A BLOOD TRANSFUSION. IT IS A VERY SIMPLE FACT.

That is the one sentence fact that Paula, the IAAF, Dr. Martial "Plan B" Saugy, and rekrunner can't explain...... which sums up over 1100 posts on this thread......... which has now reached the point of complete absurdity!

After reading that part of Paula's biography, and looking at her blood test results when they were published, it took me less than 10 seconds to decide she had done an autologous blood transfusion in 2003, and that she was telling LIES and COVERING IT UP!!!! No information that has come out since then has led me to change my mind, so far. All of the information coming out since then also points to the IAAF and Dr. PLAN B SAUGY being INVOLVED in the COVERUP FOR PAULA. This article here shows a history going back to 2002 of the IAAF doing FAVORS FOR PAULA!!!!!!!!

You can also look at Paula's face in the video interviews at the time the story came out. See and feel if you think she is telling the truth, or if she has something to hide.......... like her blood test results from her 2:15 and 2:17 world records. She could release those results, show normal OFF scores and hemoglobin values, and completely destroy the critics and doubters. But she does not release any scores...... Why not? Since the abnormal scores have already been made public which make fully transparent Paula look guilty, she should release normal scores from her world record races to show everyone that fully transparent Paula is actually innocent. It would take about 2 minutes!!!!!!!

NO. Instead, the LIARS AND FRAUDS at the IAAF and Dr. Plan B Saugy have declared Paula innocent with a whitewash report which has so many holes, omissions, and false statements (which I have pointed out in detail) in it that it is a complete JOKE!!!

GO.... pure....... innocent..... fully transparent.........PAULA!!!!!

I believe rekrunner & Jon Orange are trolling, but I'm going to bite anyway.

Yes, Hemoconcentration during vigorous exercise can reduce plasma volume by 10%-20%, but you've left out the other side of the equation:

"In response comes the release of renin, aldosterone, and vasopressin to conserve water and salt. Also, albumin is added to the blood (Nagashima et al., 2000). As a result, baseline plasma volume expands. Even a single bout of intense exercise can expand the plasma volume by 10% within 24 h (Gillen et al., 1991)."

So when the both sides of the equation are looked at, plasma volume goes up, which means hemoglobin concentration goes down.

Anaemia & Blood Boosting, this is a good article:

http://www.gssiweb.org/Article/sse-81-anemia-and-blood-boosting

I think rekrunner is referring to this Schumacher paper, Haemoglobin mass in cyclists during stage racing, 2008? Which states like every publication I have seen regarding plasma volume, that during prolonged exercise plasma volume goes up.

Time for a new defence I think.

To a simpleton like me it looks at though Paula was doing some kind of blood manipulation but doesn't seem to it as doping/morally wrong.

For a woman with so many apparent problems, terrible running style and weird diet (ostrich meat, etc lol) she was one amazing woman.

She's not.

Miopic fan wrote:

Why is Paula the only one who experiences this plasma shift?

This is where we are going to have to disagree then. As an elite athlete and holder of the world record by some distance the transparency of her results are simply much bigger than her privacy around this. An athlete has to forego some privacy as part of the role, for example informing testers of your whereabouts daily. Then when that athlete misses a test the public can know.

Paula knows this and yet their is still a refusal to finally put this matter to bed.

Now can I just ask what you would demand if we substitute Paula for a Russian athlete in exactly the same situation. Would you be sticking up for their privacy?

Orange fruit wrote:

Jon Orange is well known as an idiot on these boards, he had an argument several years ago that he would beat an athlete with his 'kick' despite being 2-3 minutes slower over 10k. He couldn't grasp that he might not be in striking distance and also tried to argue that his 'kick' was unrelated to his 'speed'. The guy is a numpty and doesn't deserve a response.

Make up some complete lies why don't you? Quite the norm for this thread.

Autologus madness wrote:

His brain's full of orange pulp!

So sad, he can't accept the fact that his little running hero has been a cheat throughout her career! Which is obvioux to almost everybody else!

Orange fruit wrote:

Jon Orange is well known as an idiot on these boards, he had an argument several years ago that he would beat an athlete with his 'kick' despite being 2-3 minutes slower over 10k. He couldn't grasp that he might not be in striking distance and also tried to argue that his 'kick' was unrelated to his 'speed'. The guy is a numpty and doesn't deserve a response.

Great trolling job. If you think that posting thousands of words of lies is worthwhile?

Who is crazy? You are.

casual obsever wrote:

Jon Orange wrote:

That is not how plasma shift is measured. Read what I wrote. I didn't cite anyone. I did a simple calculation. I used 12.8 to 15.6 hemoglobin counts.

Wrong. You cited me. I cited IAAF. IAAF talked about a possible increase in haemoglobin concentration/hemoconcentration of 10 - 20%, which I calculated to be 30%.

You can talk about plasma shift all you want, but measured was not the plasma shift, but the HGB, and discussed was not the plasma shift, but the HGB.

Evidence:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&thread=6881090&id=7113409#7113409

I didn't cite you. I came up with these numbers weeks ago. It is plasma shift that should be measured to calculate the hemoglobin change.

Miopic fan wrote:

Why is Paula the only one who experiences this plasma shift?

She isn't. He's just trolling you.

rekrunner wrote:

She's not.

Miopic fan wrote:

Why is Paula the only one who experiences this plasma shift?

rekrunner, you do know that you are being trolled to hell on this thread don't you?

Putting aside all the blood anomalies for the moment, I would love to have time to list all the bizarre stories, contradictions (misdirections?) that have come up in Paula's biography and interviews. Like the joyriders driving by in Portugal, kicking up a stone which fires into her knee. Happens all the time to us runners, doesn't it.

It's not impossible, of course. But that sums up her stories, her blood values ... implausible but not impossible, etc.

And damn she seems cozy with the testers, who share results with her. I've never seen anyone adequately explain that.

Credit to Rekrunner for continuing to defend Paula, at least it has produced something of a balanced debate. Hell, though, I have no idea where you find the time or the patience to do it. Do you post on other threads to this extent? (I tend only to read the blood doping ones...)

You only read the blood dopin ones? Oh boy, where do I start?

So you believe that having more red blood cells is an advantage to a runner do you?

So why does the human body not just produce more as we get fitter?

And how does supposedly using more oxygen relate to homeostasis?

Not to mention glycogen depletion?

And are you not aware that faster runners are more energy efficient and actually use LESS total oxygen to race, not more?

I don't think many people who care think she was clean since she basically any into hiding inn this matter.

Given her statements last week about medication if love to know what her fellow competitors think of her use of actovigen, which is banned by the IOC.