Sub 1:50 800m Training

I can bump allllll night =)

Anbessa....good itching of this thread!

1500m vs 800m training. Here you do need to really nail down the aerobic work. You definately need less raw power so you can cut out some of the drills/short hills/etc and really focus on the distance. I think you can be a world class 800m even on 60-65 miles per week, but I dont know any milers who were consistant at a high level without averaging more in the 80s. You really need to be able to tackle a decent 3k (even Coe ran sub 8min).

The other element of this training that is difference is even pacing. In the 800m you all know I harp on using all your interval work to "cut down the pace" throughout the workout. Also the speed work is often done faster than race pace - the 800m itself is never run at one pace. The 1500m is different in that you do need to be able to run a quick pace for the first 1000m completely comfortably, so you need to practice just holding that goal pace. 4-6-4-2 two sets really cutting down the rest. Lots of work holding pace for what should be a negative split race.

The tempos instead of 3miles at 5min pace you need to do a couple 6-8 mile runs at 520 pace. The most important part of this I am convinced is just steeping your body in a consistent pot of 85 mile weeks for long periods so that you get the aerobic adaptations. This takes alot more durability.

Holman -- I wish there were a different story here but truth is there is no secret. Obviously a very talented guy but there are plenty talented guys (Holman was a 410 HS miler). Steve just worked harder than anyone else in the country by a wide margin. He trained harder and put in the miles. He would train all fall with Trautmann and Sherry banging out 13:20 level 5k workouts, then drop down occassionally with Kenah and the boys to tune speed (he ended up running under 145 for 800m). One thing I learned from Steve was to really push the rest...we would do 800s or 1200s and he would run the recovery lap under 7 minute pace. It started to feel like a continuous run which I think was the point. All the interval workouts began to just feel like fartleks...but they made you really strong! You couldnt just rip a huge last interval because you never got to fully recover, but that is what a race feels like.

As we have discussed before, make or break workout in the spring is 3x800m 4 seconds above race pace, at race pace, 4 seconds below race pace. 800 jog in between. This workout doesnt lie. If you try to go too fast on the first or second you will blow up on the third which should tell you that you arent at that fitness level yet.

OldSub4 wrote:

milers who were consistant at a high level without averaging more in the 80s. You really need to be able to tackle a decent 3k (even Coe ran sub 8min).

This thread is too good to die! Coe ran sub 8 minutes (7:58?)but that is quite slow compared to his shorter prs-you would expect him to be around 7:45 at least.

And he did run the 1500/mile very fast fairly consistantly while not averaging in the 80s. Maybe high 60s and low 70s, but not averaging 80s by any means. Was he able to get away with that due to

a)starting running early

b)very good form and economical

c)good 800m speed

d)very light weight/low body fat

?

There has never been another runner who moved around the track quite like Coe did-not El Guerrouj, not Kipketer, not Cram, not Ovett, not Cruz. He flowed. Is this trainable or is it more due to the fact that he had all the right biomechanical factors down from birth-and was destined to be good?

To all the serious readers of this post; it might be time to let it die or start up a follow up post. One thing that always intrigues me is that when good advice is given or discussed, there never seems to be enough follow up about what resulted.

Here is a bit of positive news. I coach high end juniors and have some input into the training of some good seniors.The biggest change we made in training this year was that we added a workout like 2k,1k,1k,600,400. At the start of the year we would run 6:10, 3:00 etc and we moved down to about 5:50, 2:50 etc (usually 3 min rest.)My juniors also ran 4x1000m 2:55, 2:50, 2:48, 2:47.

Our best senior just ran 3:38-a 2 1/2 sec PR. My best junior has run 3:59/1:57/8:47.

We are just getting into our main season and I am going to run the 600 sequence posted on about page 4. (4x600,1:30, 3x600 1:27 and finally 2x600 1:24-5)

We also did more tempo running than in previous years,so in summary, I think the advice and input on this thread is invaluable.(Especially if you actually use it!)

Great job Anbessa. Thanks Old Sub4. Flow, if you are out there, what happened to your 40 yr old?

Best wishes to all. I will post some follow up results and analysis. Hope some others will do the same.

I'll add some results -- Dropped my PR from 3:59 to 3:54 in the 1500m with a 3:00 1200 to boot in a DMR race. As Oldsub4 suggested, continuing XC tempo type Runs, but just shortened definitely was the biggest change for me. Last week was actually my last week of tempo type runs. Though I felt I may have lost a little "400m" speed, all of my distance PR's 1500 and up have improved. So for me, the biggest change was adding in a tempo run that replaced some type of 800m paced of miled paced workouts!

I'm hoping with an increase in mileage to 70 this summer and holding steady around 50-60 next year, I will see even more improvements in the distance events. Specifically, breaking the 3:50 1500m barrier, which is why I changed the direction of this thread to 1500m training. Thanks to all that have contributed thus far!

Nice running. Here is some positive reinforcement-when I was young I ran 3:49 off of a 3:01 1200 p.r., so you can do it.

My favourite 1500 workout at mid to late season is 1200@ race pace +3-4 sec and then 400-600-400 with 60-90 sec rest @1 sec faster than race pace.

another canuck wrote:

Nice running. Here is some positive reinforcement-when I was young I ran 3:49 off of a 3:01 1200 p.r., so you can do it.

My favourite 1500 workout at mid to late season is 1200@ race pace +3-4 sec and then 400-600-400 with 60-90 sec rest @1 sec faster than race pace.

Love this workout.

I have used a lot of good advice from this thread in creating training this season. So far, after 7 weeks of training (basketball players), one of my kids has gone 1:54 in the 800- a big PR. We have all of the "parts" to the car- the endurance, the pure speed, the strength, etc, aerobic capacity- now it seems we're finally ready to cash in.

There are four weeks left, with the 4th being the state meet.

What are three good final 800 meter specific workouts that I can do at the beginning of each of these weeks. I have some in mind, but I want some other opinions.

We have yet to do a real specific 800 meter-paced workout, but have raced 800m twice and added 4x200 (29-28-27-26) to the end of 2 mile-paced workouts.

Here's what I am thinking- everything in-between easy:

Week 4:

1. 350-300-250-200-150 @ 53-51 pace w/jog rec=distance run

2. 5x1000m LT w/ 45 seconds rest

3. Race 1600/800/4x400

Week 3:

1. 2x (400-2x200-4x100) @ 56/55 pace/400 meters- not sure on the recovery yet

2. Race 800-1600-3200-(will be able to be conservative)

Week 2:

1. 600-2x300-4x150 @ 1:52 pace

2. Race 800m

Final Week:

1. 2x400 @ mile pace, 2x200 @ 800 pace 2x200 @ 400 pace- full recovery, work on running relaxed

2. State Meet 800/1600

I think you could use a couple of longer workouts at just above race pace-especially 3-4 weeks out. We are 4 weeks out and my main group which includes 1:54-1:56 guys, did 4x600 yesterday-1:31,1:30, 1:30, 1:31. 4-5 min rest. The last one was supposed to be 1:28, but they could't hold it.

My guys are more 800/1500 as well, so 4 is probably too many for your guys. I also like 600 + 200 2 sets.

Looks like you have a nice group and have done a good job. Good luck

You probably have 2 workouts left.

I like what you have posted- some other options:

1.

2x200 (2 min rest/reps)

2x (500 @ goal pace- rest 2 min 200 @ 400 race pace)

5 minute recovery between sets

2. 500-400-300-200-100 @ goal 800 pace with 400 meter walk/jog recoveries

Others:

a. 2x Hollow 600's (200 @ goal pace- 200 fast float- 200 fast)

b. 2x(400-2x200-4x100)@ goal pace- (200 jog/reps)/ 400 walk/sets

c. 2x600 @ goal pace- rest 60 seconds- 200 fast

d. 2x700 @ goal 800 time

another canuck, glad to hear how your athletes are progressing. could you inform us how you structure your weekly training? is it similar to oldsub4 with tue/thu/sat hard workouts or something different?

Yes, pretty similar stuff. As has been said before, there is not a lot of new ideas out there, but it is how you apply the existing ideas, mixing and matching for your athletes.

We did a pretty solid build up all winter even though we raced a few times. In the early Spring I spent more time than previous years with the 3k 2k 1k type workout (once a week) plus we raced once at 5k, and TT at 3k and 2k. Not everyone benefited equally, but most of the group did.

Now that we are in our mid season prep stage, we are struggling with the weather. ( On Sat morning it hailed on us)

Nevertheless, a typical week looks like this(for runners 3:54-4:05 and 1:54-2:04.pace adjusted accordingly)

Sun; 45-50 min

Mon; 15-20 min tempo run plus strides;

Tues 4x600m 1:31-1:28 4-5 min rest plus 5x50m full speed

Wed;12-14k easy

Thurs 2-3 sets;3x500m @1500 pace(1:18-1:22) 75-90 sec rest + 8 min between sets

Fri: rest or 35 min easy

Sat race or simulation; 1000m 2:39 +500m 1:18; 600m 1:27 +200m 27.

On Sat one of the strongest kids remarked that he was surprised at how easily he had run 2:39 +1:18. I had made a point to say no kicking, so he had relaxed down the last straight and sensed that he could have kept going.

I think this is one of the best reasons to run race pace simulations,not only to physically adapt but also mentally.

Anyway, lots of weeks to go so we'll see, and I will post failure as well as success so that others can comment.

Good luck to all.

Seems like a great thread to ask for advice on.

I have my first 800m track race of the season coming up this week.

As I am currently self coaching my self, I am not too sure what to do in my usual track session tommorow (2 days before Wednesdays race).

I completed a track session of (3 x 4 x 200m) at faster than 800m pace yesterday to get used to the feel of the pace again. I was thinking maybe something like 8 x 150m @400m pace? So not high volume but just to work on my speed again.

Bear in mind I dont intend on peaking for this race so I will only be easing up the day before.

Thanks

If it is only the first race of the season and you have already done a bit of race pace stuff, try something like 3x400@ 2 sec slower than race pace(90 sec rest) or 2x500 at slightly slower than race pace with 5-6 min rest.

I have 48.x 400m speed and have seemed to hit a plateau at 1:52. No matter what I've done race strategy my time ends up around 1:52-3.

I'm not a big muscular 400/800 guy which leads me to believe that I'm more suited towards 800/1500.

I've been doing tons of speed stuff and 800 specific work. My 400m time has improved by ~2 seconds since hs but my 800m time hasn't changed at all.

Typical week

2x 800 specific work days

2x 30 minute easy runs

1x pure speed day

What am I missing in my program?

Confused 800 Guy wrote:

I have 48.x 400m speed and have seemed to hit a plateau at 1:52. No matter what I've done race strategy my time ends up around 1:52-3.

I'm not a big muscular 400/800 guy which leads me to believe that I'm more suited towards 800/1500.

I've been doing tons of speed stuff and 800 specific work. My 400m time has improved by ~2 seconds since hs but my 800m time hasn't changed at all.

Typical week

2x 800 specific work days

2x 30 minute easy runs

1x pure speed day

What am I missing in my program?

==============================================

You may be missing "strength-endurance" work: either longer intervals (like 600's, 800's, 1000's, 1200's, or 1600's) at 5k-15k pace or continous tempo runs over hilly terrain (lasting 30-45 minutes). If you already have speed, it's the strength-endurance end that probably is holding your back from dropping to 1:50.

Good luck!

Tinman

Old Sub 4,

Did you train with Rich Kenah? If so, are you able/willing to share some insights as to how he trained, like what kind of ratio between aerobic/anaerobic workouts that he felt worked best for him, maybe even some specific sessions or training weeks that he actually performed in every phase of the training year?

It seems to me that he, along with Symmonds and Teter, would be some of the more archetypal Gagliano success 'miler-trained' 800m athletes, and would be interesting to learn from how he conducted his career.

The thing that you lack is so obvious that you should know it by yourself. It´s not speed, so...

Old Sub4, thank you for everything you've written. I'm trying to prepare next year's plan based on your advice, and I just have a question about one of the workouts.

Basic outline - 3 workouts and a long run per week (plus drills, mileage, plyos, etc). Got that.

Workout 1 is what we might call VO2 max intervals that eventually are replaced by speed endurance days. So, cutdown 5*800 all fall and winter, then eventually this gets replaced by race specific stuff at 800 pace like 3x500, but only in the sharpening phase. Got that.

Workout 2 is year-round tempos until the peaking phase. In the fall it might be 6 miles at 6 min pace, but by March-April we're down to 3 miles at 4:50. Got that.

I don't really understand how the third workout of the week evolves. In the fall it is a power workout (short hills, max effort, full recovery), and in the sharpening phase it looks like a pure speed day (4x400 at sub 50), but what is the logic of the ladder workouts in the strength phase? I would understand the evolution of the workout if it went from power to speed...but the "at pace" stuff in the strengthening phase confuses me a little.

At one point you gave a sample Strength phase week and listed the workout: "Sat am pace work. 1600-1200-800-400, 1200-800-400. 400s would end up under 60...".

Can you tell us more about that ladder workout? What kind of paces, how it progresses throughout the phase, etc. Also, what is the purpose? Tempo works on AT, long intervals work on LT, hills and weight work on power, plyos and drills develop neuromuscular coordination, speed endurance (in the spring) works on lactic acid tolerance, etc. What does the ladder session do? Also, does a Saturday workout replace it?

Thanks!