Anecdotally I always feel better if I ease into my subT reps and work up to target pace.
Something like 1 x 10 mins, 2 x 5 mins and 3 x 3 mins then for a composite session? I guess that could be a nice optimisation as it leaves the session volume more or less the same, but Bakken thinks it improves muscle tone.
Yeah, that tracks with his original blog post and some of this Reddit posts -- he recommended ending with a few fast and short reps a number of times. KI also used to do mixed sessions like 3x(7+3), 2x(10+7+3), and 14-10-7-3 for a while.
What exactly does he mean by fast strides though? Actual strides at the end of the intervals?
Yeah, that tracks with his original blog post and some of this Reddit posts -- he recommended ending with a few fast and short reps a number of times. KI also used to do mixed sessions like 3x(7+3), 2x(10+7+3), and 14-10-7-3 for a while.
What exactly does he mean by fast strides though? Actual strides at the end of the intervals?
Hopefully there will be some discussions once more have read the book. Marius likes his doubles and I can see there will be some xfactor stuff too later on ... but I'm now only on page 80, so at the end of his into chapter going from chouch to 5k and ending with 3 hours of running
Nice to have in writing that a 3 hour week consists of 3 quality workouts and one easy run.
Sirpoc has said similar. The core of it all is the 3 subt runs and then you fill in easy, but a lot of NSM online posts insists on a 25/75 split even at lower volumes.
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Anyways back to your question about strides:
"Smart Strides" at the end of quality workouts:
Jog for 2-3 minutes then do 5-8 x 100m slightly above threshold
Focus on keeping them even and not on sprinting as they are there to normalize musculature after the workout.
Jog for 2-3 minutes then do 5-8 x 100m slightly above threshold
Focus on keeping them even and not on sprinting as they are there to normalize musculature after the workout.
Jog or stand between strides
Since he writes a tempo slightly above threshold on page 45, I interpret that as slightly above the 60-minute race tempo or the Daniels T tempo. Do you make the same conclusion?
One other unrelated thing from the book is that he says that easy runs should always be completely run below 70% MaxHR. I've seen a few NSA discussions online where some have interpreted Sirpoc's <70% recommendation as the average HR during the easy run. Bakken is even more clear on the 70% as a hard cap, and with more details on why.
Interesting but also a bit weird? If he is focussing on 3 minute intervals and below, those would already be slightly faster than threshold, no? So smart strides are roughly the same pace?
Yeah, seconding, because that does sound kinda odd. Let's say you run 10x3 @ LT2, 20x1:30 @ 10K or 25x0:45 @ 5K-ish as Bakken is usually suggesting ... what exactly do 5-8 "strides" at around LT2 achieve? I kinda get it for slower intervals.
One other unrelated thing from the book is that he says that easy runs should always be completely run below 70% MaxHR. I've seen a few NSA discussions online where some have interpreted Sirpoc's <70% recommendation as the average HR during the easy run. Bakken is even more clear on the 70% as a hard cap, and with more details on why.
Can you summarise some of those details for <70%? I'm trying to convince myself of it, as it doesn't hit right with me (70% is the lightest possible jog at literally walking speed).
Yeah, I feel like HR varies way too much from person to person for <70% as a hard rule.
I can run easy at 60% or even <60% pretty much any day, my wife on the other hand is at 72-74% whether she runs 7:15/km or 6:15/km -- HR is the pretty much the same. Plus, she gets negative decoupling of 1-2% on virtually any run, which renders drawing any conclusion from easy or long runs virtually impossible.
-Strides before shorter reps (10x3' or 5x6') to prepare for the first rep.
-Strides after longer reps (3x10') to "normalize muscle tone" (?).
What do people of NSA think? I will start testing this it in 2-3 weeks and report back.
I do a couple of 15-20" relaxed strides at 1500-3k pace before any subT workout, I find it's enough to dial in muscle tone as I usually feel a bit flat before and ready to go after (textbook really). Maybe a little bit more risky to do them after the subT reps, and I don't understand how increased muscle tone would help recovery but I'd like to know more
Can you summarise some of those details for <70%? I'm trying to convince myself of it, as it doesn't hit right with me (70% is the lightest possible jog at literally walking speed).
* He calls the 70-80% range the "grey zone", where the training effect are low while the load increases substantially compared to below it. The shift seems to appear fairly quickly just around 70%.
* An easy day that is too intense means heavier legs on the Q day and increased injury risk. It's an experience both from himself and from his patients as an MD.
* One aim of the E day is to lower the muscle tone as much as possible, to prepare for the next Q session.
* Stagnation without a clear cause is likely caused by what you do on the E day after the Q session.
* The E day dictates if the Q day becomes a great session or an average one.
* The temptation to run too fast on easy days are the same for all runners, regardless of race time capacity. When he trained for his 5k PB of 13:06 he had to actively slow himself down on the E days (he ran E at 4:10-4:20 /km or slower).
* Also important to not do heavy strength or speed training on E days.
As a 57 year old runner doing the easy days below 70% has been the key thing with this system. It was hard at first running so slowly and I was fearful the reduced miles on would negatively impact my fitness. Training load is very similar now to what it was before but fitness is increasing after stagnating for a few years. But, the easy days while still slow, have gotten quicker as fitness has increased and I quite enjoy them. It’s nice not to feel trashed for 2 days after a workout too. Crazy how easing off just a bit has made a difference.
Just a heads up as I haven't seen anyone mention it here.
Scandinavians might be interested in the new Marius Bakken book "Løpning!" that dropped this week.
I got the book yesterday. Have just read some small sections yet, but it's really seems to have some great content! The approach is very much like his postings on Reddit, like the importance of being defensive rather than offensive in the choice of S/T training efforts. Also, there is more emphasis of the shorter intervals (less than 3 minutes, as well as a big focus on the 45+15) than in Vanilla NSA.
There's also some sections about general running health, such as some specifics about the running for women and older people. And surprisingly to me at least, there is a chapter on training motivation an dopamine. And also a section at the end of the book about muscle tone.
The book is more "academic" in its tone than sirpoc's book. Both books focus on the same basic idea, but from very different angles.
What sort of effort does he recommend for the 45/15s?
What sort of effort does he recommend for the 45/15s?
Gradually going from a starting 10-15k race tempo to a 3-5k race tempo. 80-95% of MaxHR, but the high HR will not cause the body to feel like trash afterwards, since the lactate levels will remain stable if executed correctly.
I hope the English version of the book arrives soon, so everyone gets a chance to read and discuss it. The book contains so many small details on each topic.
Regarding 70% max HR for easy running. Bakken and sirpoc are absolutely aligned on this. So much so, in the book sirpoc mentions he would walk if he is going over it. But, that mostly, his easy running is well under that anyway.
IMO it's pretty key to the whole system of NSM or Bakken's doubling. They are cut out of the same mould, Bakken and sirpoc. Keeping easy truly easy is the secret really to allowing tou to do three quality workouts a week. I went from 75% MHR on my easy runs to 65% and the difference in weekly or accumulated fatigue is an epic change for the better. The amount of people who I see say they "can't" run this easy, I almost know immediately the discipline to use NSM or Bakken's doubling, they don't have.
The one advantage NSM has to me, is the 3-6-10 min reps get me in shape across the board. I can jump into 5k and even a half at any point. The shorter sub threshold stuff I would probably do if I wanted some real 1500-3k sharpening. But even then, a lot of us I guess older know it does probably take a little longer to shake off the session (in my experience anyway).
As a 57 year old runner doing the easy days below 70% has been the key thing with this system. It was hard at first running so slowly and I was fearful the reduced miles on would negatively impact my fitness. Training load is very similar now to what it was before but fitness is increasing after stagnating for a few years. But, the easy days while still slow, have gotten quicker as fitness has increased and I quite enjoy them. It’s nice not to feel trashed for 2 days after a workout too. Crazy how easing off just a bit has made a difference.
Agree and as a 51 year old, I find that averaging closer to 60% MHR works really well for recovery. Prior to following NSM, I would have found it a struggle to run as slow as 70% MHR, now I'd say it feels faster than I want to go on easy days. It takes practice and you're right, the easy pace does eventually get faster as fitness improves.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who enjoys celebrating "low HR PRs" - e.g. lowest average HR ever on a long run. I've had quite a few of these the last few months.
Can you summarise some of those details for <70%? I'm trying to convince myself of it, as it doesn't hit right with me (70% is the lightest possible jog at literally walking speed).
* He calls the 70-80% range the "grey zone", where the training effect are low while the load increases substantially compared to below it. The shift seems to appear fairly quickly just around 70%.
* An easy day that is too intense means heavier legs on the Q day and increased injury risk. It's an experience both from himself and from his patients as an MD.
* One aim of the E day is to lower the muscle tone as much as possible, to prepare for the next Q session.
* Stagnation without a clear cause is likely caused by what you do on the E day after the Q session.
* The E day dictates if the Q day becomes a great session or an average one.
* The temptation to run too fast on easy days are the same for all runners, regardless of race time capacity. When he trained for his 5k PB of 13:06 he had to actively slow himself down on the E days (he ran E at 4:10-4:20 /km or slower).
* Also important to not do heavy strength or speed training on E days.
Appreciate all the Norwegian-speakers giving the rest of us an advanced peak on Bakken's new book. Interesting to note that some followers of this methodology broadly do not follow the specifics recommended here. For example, I'm fairly certain Hobbs Kessler does 4 threshold sessions a week with strict lactate control, and he keeps his easy days very easy (7:30-8' pace), but I'm pretty sure he does max speed and strength training on E days. I'm fairly certain the Ingebritsens also do max speed or at least fast strides on Mondays (with Double-T on Tuesdays). Just an observation. Not expressing an opinion on which approach is more prudent for elites.
Wow I'm actually shocked by that. Thought he was finished lol he's hardly been running.
Maybe this is a big tick for cross training and he really is in, or close to peak shape. He said he might have a 50/50 at breaking 15 and to be honest I thought he had lost the plot. But, clearly when dealing with things the cross training subthreshold balance has done the job. Now he has run 15:01, 15:02 and 15:04. The amazing thing is, the 15:01 was solo on a course that sucks. That was his post London fitness and just shows you marathon training is the fittest you'll likely be.
Regarding 70% max HR for easy running. Bakken and sirpoc are absolutely aligned on this. So much so, in the book sirpoc mentions he would walk if he is going over it. But, that mostly, his easy running is well under that anyway.
IMO it's pretty key to the whole system of NSM or Bakken's doubling. They are cut out of the same mould, Bakken and sirpoc. Keeping easy truly easy is the secret really to allowing tou to do three quality workouts a week. I went from 75% MHR on my easy runs to 65% and the difference in weekly or accumulated fatigue is an epic change for the better. The amount of people who I see say they "can't" run this easy, I almost know immediately the discipline to use NSM or Bakken's doubling, they don't have.
The one advantage NSM has to me, is the 3-6-10 min reps get me in shape across the board. I can jump into 5k and even a half at any point. The shorter sub threshold stuff I would probably do if I wanted some real 1500-3k sharpening. But even then, a lot of us I guess older know it does probably take a little longer to shake off the session (in my experience anyway).
This is key. My HR has gone down immensely since I started. Went to 65% of MHR and was almost walking, but now am able to hold 9:20-9:30 pace at 125-135 now, a few months ago 9:20 pace was around 150-155 when starting and EZ pace was 10 flat. Everyone's HR and % will be different, of course.
Am able to stack 2 sessions w/o any issues of recovery or taking time off, etc. No plantar or heel pain like I used to have.