Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

The 5000m European Champ winner Bruce Tulloh wrote his advice to be like ; First see how far training by single sessions can take you before you might take the decision to move up in mileage.

It's training stress score, not training strain score.

I don’t think there is as big a difference between these two approaches as you think. You may even find that the former gets you to where you want to be faster than the latter, especially on average in risk adjusted terms.

I’ve been an evangelist of this method since I first read every page of the thread in one night a little over two years ago. It was clear and logical and anyone could use it to make steady progress, but I considered myself somehow exceptional.

For context, I came from a semi-professional sporting background prior to picking up running (at almost the exact same time as sirpoc incidentally). I ran 81 minutes for a half after 4 months and 17:24 for solo TT 5k a few months after that (at 6’0 88kg). I figured I’d just train like the elites and get to a similar level. I started doubling after 5 months, running double threshold workouts after 6-7 months (both sessions at or above LT2 I now realise), long runs usually had MP reps or were progressive. I barely improved beyond that initial point for the next two years. I confused tolerating high mileage (~140-160km weeks) with adapting to or needing high mileage.

So when I started NSM I was still doing “easy”doubles (76-77% MHR), slightly harder long runs, I’d probably push the occasional sub T session into “threshold+” whenever I’d listen to an Andreas Almgren interview or see it on Cam Myers strava. Basically I was trying to do what you’re proposing, but it didn’t work out. My CTL was anywhere from 85-100+ but I’m running better now with CTL of ~55 completely on singles.

You can increase load and introduce doubling as fast as you want but I think you need to do so with thought and intention. You can easily get into a hole by being impatient and trying to break through plateaus by stacking more load. If the plateau was caused by not allowing sufficient time to adapt to previous training load it can become a vicious cycle where you’re trying to address the problem with its cause.

Xert Strain Score (XSS) vs Training Stress Score (TSS)

So strain is talking XSS, obviously.

How does one determine if a plateau is caused by not sufficiently adapting to previous training load vs actually exhausted improvements on a particular training load

WTF is Xert?

This is a real world example of what I was trying to posit a few posts ago. Thank you

Of course you agree with that. You wrote that, Jan the Trashcan man.

This is where I think reflection and honesty with yourself comes in. I enjoy reading and listening to Almgren’s stuff.

The numbers are obviously irrelevant to all of us (unless Andreas or Yomif or Jakob are lurking?) but he’s clearly still making big gains on the Pro vanilla version and doesn’t feel the need to change it up hugely beyond his 2 week, still very controlled, specific block.

Very difficult. First and foremost I'd define a plateau as a long (at least 4 months) timeframe with no conditions-adjusted race/training paces improvement.
Fast answer would be up the load for 6 weeks and see, but that comes with the risk of injury/burnout/non functional overreaching/overtraining.
There are no clear indicators of the body not adapting to present stimulus because it's too little, but there are many of the contrary: quality of sleep, bad mood, tendency to get illnesses, soreness, iron deficiency...

This sounds a bit like an obvious answer but really it comes to the athlete's experience and self knowledge.

The longer you train like this, the easier it is to feel.

I had a big problem with sleep a couple of months ago and I could tell it was affecting my ability to absorb or handle load.

It's one of the reasons I believe the ramp rate is key. You can just about get away with it even when you have the stress I did of a newborn baby and a new job starting. In fact, in that period I actually took my took off the gas a tiny amount.

When I have had a plateau but felt good, that is when I incrementally started to up things. Again, this isn't fast! But, a couple of months down the line I was still feeling good and then improved again. I've posted before about this, the short term fix once was to hit intensity and I peaked for a race, the downside is I got worse quite quickly after a month of that. That's not a suprise, I traded a lot of my hard earned fitness for intensity.

In general, would say an upside of this method is it's so repeatable it's easier to narrow down problems when they occur. Whether that be going to hard, doing too much, being ill, underlying health issues. All of which we will encounter, because, you know, we are hobby joggers.

Thanks for this. Your progress has been really good as I sort of knew your background before, but started to really stand out. I am from Hampshire yes. I ran a couple of Lakeside's that both you and sirpoc were in. But this was way before anyone knew who he was and even I could beat him lol Sometimes I don't think people appreciate how low a starting point he was at for so long and if I'm beating you it's a very low bar lol

I guessed you were training like NSM from the sessions and have in retrospect seen you comment on each others Strava from time to time. Again, this is eye opening to me as you are like cheetodust, Wigglewaffle and a few others. Incredibly experienced athletes who in their own right have so much knowledge yet gravitate towards this and keep it very close to it's intended spirit and the results are clearly paying off. Another very fast guy who has set a mile PB off this. Interesting.

Good luck on sub 2:30 and hope you had a good time in Seville. I must try and get in for next year. Maybe it was you seen out with the man himself drinking up the streets of Seville! Brits abroad, eh? Give sirpoc a camera and a trip to a race weekend in Europe and I think we could get some of the best running YouTube content we have ever seen......

This is a trap that I’ve seen a handful of people fall into with this method. They jump straight into 3 x 60, 3 x 30 sub-T, 90 long, instead of gradually building to that point. Or maybe they increase from 5 to 7.5 hours of training over only a few months. You can squeeze a lot of each training load. I think people often rush to do more before they need to do more. Some people get injured. Some people don’t. Just because you can handle a certain training load doesn’t mean that you need to be training at that volume. I think the people that jump to higher loads sooner than they need to limit their top end potential as well. You can only increase so much before it becomes unproductive or you run out of time. Patience is the key.

Xert is a training platform similar to TrainingPeaks, but focused on power. They have a "Xert Strain Score" (XSS) that is similar to TSS, but uses max power available to account for fatigue. 1 hour at threshold gives an XSS of 100 when fresh, but can be higher than 100 if fatigued.

Intervals.icu has a strain score ("SS") metric separate from load (TSS) that is similar to Xert. It is also a three-parameter model that uses max power available.

baronbiosys.com

Understanding Xert Strain Score

Scott

Understanding Xert Strain Score (XSS)How Xert measures the work you do - and how it shapes your training.XSS (Xert Strain Score) is Xert’s way of measuring the total strain you accumulate during any ride: structured workouts,...

Open link

forum.intervals.icu

Three-dimensional impulse-response model

We have started implementing some of the ideas in this paper (Xert uses a similar model): Nothing is live yet but I like the first results. You get a trace with the relative contribution of each energy system (aerobic, glycol...

Open link

Thanks. Too many players in the market trying to make a fast buck to keep track of them all.

Sad to see that neither Xert nor ICU seem to know the difference between stress and strain.

Then again, ICU calls CTL "fitness", so perhaps not surprising that they would make this mistake as well.

I was a victim of this. I got excited at the gains I was experiecning and how well I was handling volume compared to the past. I thought the 7.5h was sustainable after having done MAX 6h of volume a week, just the same amount of mileage. I maintained a volume that was WAY too high for me, until at one point an injury came about and I had to restart.

I am coming back at it a second time with more patience. This week I will hit 5 hours. 2x sub T sessions as I work back from sickness and injury. Not Doctor Will is absolutely correct, you want to be patient after improvement. At least, until you max out your improvement at that specific volume.

I also tend to preach to my athletes just the same but when it comes to me and my running, I get greedy and excited. Oh well, human nature. Time to give this another go with more discipline. I believe the PRs are out there, I just have to be patient.

For those like Paul Luttrell who are stagnating and looking for ways to increase load or add a different stimulus, has anyone considered adding periodization to the mix?

For example doing small blocks similar to the special marathon block. Where you trade one of the sub T sessions for a session with more intensity and/or more mileage. But only doing it for a 3-4 weeks, then reverting back to vanilla NSM for 5-6 weeks to recover and absorb the training and then repeating the process.

I do something similar leading up to my half marathon races, as I find I run better with some specific work leading up to goal races. These small blocks are manageable because they generally don’t last more than 4 weeks and lead into a 5-7 day taper before the race. It works well for me.

I’m I think a series of these mini blocks could provide some extra load and a different stimulus without absolutely burying yourself, and give you time to recover, absorb and adapt.