Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

This is covered well in the book. Page 125 has a good representation of the idea of more is more, until is not and you have diminishing returns. For hobby joggers the idea of load = faster is as old as time. We just used to speak about it in the 70s and 80s as mileage. A rudimentary measure, but effectively the same thing. We were just saying "do more" to get fitter. A newer runner will likely get faster on a flat load, as they have adaptations still from the act of running through body goes through.

I noticed you are pretty much doing stuff sirpoc would do. And Wigglewaffle. I'm kind of interested about the hard session I have seen you guys do? It looks like a very vo2 max workout with a float recovery. I can only imagine you guys see this as the next step as I think along with sirpoc, you two really fast guys have probably "maxed" out NSM (again we are talking years i believe i saw you guys in Strava duper early). I'm interested by this as I think a hard effort to open the system on the bike every now and again is also probably as sirpoc days "a free hit".

Bakken used 60s (10-8K pace) and 45s (5K pace) reps those can build running economy at subLT metabolic cost.

Bakken used X-type session 200meters on track ,or 30-40sec hill reps (if you have a hill) weekly ,so that is also a difference.

He also used vo2max reps before main competition,but said to be careful with them,maybe once a week,and see how the body reacts (other session subLT). If the fatigue is too high,drop the vo2max session. This is only a few weeks before main comp,so not a build up,just sharpening.

If you maxed out at NSM you can squeeze the toothpaste with these adds.

Yes. I think this is sensible. I also tried the really short hill reps, but it just shredded me from ma muscular perspective. Boring answer for me is what a lot of people have been saying about cross training. I have been alternating a pretty hard session on either the ski machine, the bike, the stairmaster or the elliptical in my gym. It's allowed me to also maintain a good amount of volume running and still feel fresh and unlock hard efforts. Maybe placebo, but I feel like even those aren't running sessions a 5k pace in a race is much easier to lock into.

This looks like very much the type of thing sirpoc, Wigglewaffle, cheetodust have been doing since (I'm guessing with direct indtucutins from the man himself).

In my opinion this is the next step that is the safest of the two options for most people. Although, the Bakken option of course if you can handle it is probably the best outcome. This is going to be an entirely personal fork in the road once you have maxed out NSM, with the choice just being preference or if you are like me taking the less risky option. Having settled into my routine I have since new year pb at 5k and 10k. 3 hours of my week is either an extra hard workout or just more easy volume on these modes.

Good luck to everyone and interesting discussion. It's why this is the best thread we have probably ever had here.

Absolutely.

Yeah, sounds like either this or underfueling to me. Most of what is usually called overreaching is undereating anyway.

Yeah absolutely, that plot in the book is very explicative. And it's nothing new really. What I want to say is that maybe even a nominally flat load can still provide marginal improvements later on in the game (I'm talking about several years of consistent training, if you are not too old, as aging will of course eat into your performance), just at a very slow rate.
But at that point the only alternative is committing more in terms of time, with the risk of injury, non functional overreaching, and setback.

Paul, some great advice for you here. Also experienced a period of low iron like another poster.

Seriously, get yourself checked out. It's very, very common amongst runners and is often described as a silent killer of performance.

The good news, is it's relatively easy to get yourself out of with diet, a bit of reduced volume, supplements if required.

I'm almost 2 years into NSM and this hit me like a brick in the summer. I'm glad I got myself checked out, as most people were just telling me I've reached the end and need to add intensity. All that would have done is create a bigger hole.

Not saying it is that, but everything you basically describe almost fits the profile of it perfectly of not only the classic symptoms of slowly getting worse, but also experiences of others.

There's plenty of amazing advice for you here in the last couple of days, I'm sure you will take the time to read it and take in some of the information. There's a lot of very smart people in this thread sharing experiences and that is what is so good about it.

Good luck!

To add to that, I was the fastest when I was accidentally doing VO2 Max sessions on my wife's peloton on top of running NSM. My HR always looked fine during these workouts but when I tested bLa, 140-ish bpm on the bike gave me similar results as 165 bpm running.

Not surprised by people turning on sirpoc at the first opportunity though, some have always been just bandwagoners

In my experience doing hard "VO2max" workouts on the bike (5x4' or 4x5' all out with 2'30" recovery) has translated to almost immediately improved running fitness.

But it is not sustainable in the long term. I used those sessions exactly how Bakken used his 1000m repeats at >8mmol.

You are best doing something shorter with float recover for just 15-20 mins total even with the float. I believe this is what cheetodust is doing or has done from what sirpoc has sprinkled in.

I find this much easier to recover from than a classic 5x4 with 75% recovery. You probably spend just as much time actually at vo2 max.

But in general, the bike is a great way to have almost 0% chance of injuring yourself + opening up your body for efforts above LT2.

Look at us now. Doing doubles and Vo2 max. Give us a year and we’ll be doing hill sprints and even strides.

Also sirpoc is likely hitting the weights for some glute and hip strengthening.

Yeah there's consensus on intermittent work at VO2max but I find it personally much more difficult than classic long intervals, and more difficult to execute on climbs. I should try it on the trainer

Why?

I'm just wondering how including bike sessions in intervals.icu would be detrimental? It will affect the fitness data (fitness and fatigue) but how would that be something to avoid? I am assuming that we are just using that data as an indicator or trend and not basing sessions or races off it.

This is a genuine question.

Doubles was always the logical end point, right? I think that was established on page 2. That's the whole point of NSM. You get the best you can put of a combo or sweet spot cycling and what Bakken did.

There's very, very few people who will max out singles. Many people have said they will never get close to even the 8+ hour plans.

Even the obsessive trainers are taking years. Literally years, to get to this point. Right?

As for vo2. I don't think anyone is against it, more is it good bang for your buck? Doesn't that come down to recovery? Just about any runner ever, surely understands the risk is muscular or injury damage, rather than the vo2 max session in itself. Seems sensible to think a out including it via other modes if you don't race much.

Thanks for this. Will you keep the cycling in? Considering you have forgotten more about running given your background, than most of us have ever known, I've always been curious about just how you have stuck to NSM and even moved with it's newest shifts. To me it speaks volumes about how positive all this is. I do wonder what guys like yourself could have run had you had something like this in college, to then naturallt lead onto doubles?

I’ve also recently started incorporating cross training (stationary bike) back into my routine. A picked up a minor quad injury a few weeks back, and for the next two weeks after I’d alternate between easy 45’ twice a day, and sweet spot intervals twice a day (40’ of intervals each); with Sunday being an easy/steady 2’. Once I started running again, my routine became easy 45’ XT in the morning before work, then 60’ easy run in the afternoon. My workout days became a sweet spot XT session in the morning, and a sub-T running session in the afternoons. This might seem unnecessary, particularly with the easy XT, but I just enjoy the routine which has suited my work schedule well during the weekdays. Anyways, I noticed that my running training paces have actually slightly improved since cross training and my heart rate has lowered too. My total running volume has dropped a bit too, kind of a trimming the fat scenario as my sub-T volume has stayed the same, but I feel fitter and more recovered with my running even with the doubles in the form of cross training. CTL has also increased notably, which I know doesn’t necessarily imply better running performance in this case, but still interesting to see. I guess what I’m saying is I’ve really enjoyed the cross training supplementation and it’s interesting to see how quickly it appears to positively impact running performance, at least from a training standpoint.