Guys like Paul and FOD out run NSM quicker than most because of the extra milage they do with doubles. I find FOD’s training system very good, mixes the threshold work in with other stimulus but still keeping it relatively under control.
I know it’s not popular but some people need to do X factor type workouts, even if it’s just regular park runs, one every 3 or 4 weeks. I think this is even more true for guys like Paul and FOD who are doing higher mileage and need some different stimulus to continue to drive gains.
NSM does have an end point, while most of us will never reach it, others will have to go looking for different stimulus to continue to drive gains. This is the stage Paul is at. Yes he could keep plugging away for the next 6 months and see if he eventually improves again or try something different and see if he improves again. Either way it’s a bit of guesswork.
If I was either of these and felt the absolute need to change things up a bit I would reach out to Marius Bakken, imo.
Just slightly less mileage than I'm doing now. In the 7 weeks prior to the race, 5 of those weeks were above 130kms, and I peaked the week before the race at 137kms.
The decision to (marginally) increase was based on the philosophy of NSM: the need to up CTL in order to drive adaptation.
In terms of doubles, I started doing "running doubles" probably around mid-2023 (before that I was biking as a double). And yes, the improvements were noticeable. There's obviously many other variables but my 10k time has gone from 35 down to 32 mins in that time.
I'm surprised Paul and others don't quite get this. The higher load, the harder it is to increase, so the slower gains will show. You are almost at "the end".
Paul was in relative newbie gains territory started, although not quite as much as some of us. It's very easy to increase load around this level. As you get to the higher end of singles (and beyond it like Paul has done) you are fighting against your new higher fitness to maintain. This is where diminishing returns set in and there's an excellent example in the NSM book about what'll happen eventually with graph included.
You probably can still get better, but it will just take longer and it's not as easy to build. If you think, in general, maybe most people are reporting some sort of improvement every few CTL point increases, Paul is at the point where it's incredibly hard to even breakthrough that, hence it can take a while, compared to further back down the curve.
This is absolutely fundamental about the whole method and it's shocking to me how some people haven't quite grasped it? It also means when you fight it more, you end up getting more fatigued, which brings on more stress and it becomes a cycle.
Talking of cycle, IMO cycling itself is the ticket out. You can hit the volume a lot more and also try other stimulus risk free. Paul is already incredibly developed when it comes to running economy and adaptations.
Paul seems a great guy but seems to be a bit blinkered and tunnel visioned and already decided how he's going to "fix" this, when I'm not even sure he correctly understands the problem.
This is absolutely fundamental about the whole method and it's shocking to me how some people haven't quite grasped it? It also means when you fight it more, you end up getting more fatigued, which brings on more stress and it becomes a cycle.
this is a property of training in general, not in any way particular to the "norwegian" singles method
Paul was in relative newbie gains territory started, although not quite as much as some of us. It's very easy to increase load around this level. As you get to the higher end of singles (and beyond it like Paul has done) you are fighting against your new higher fitness to maintain. This is where diminishing returns set in and there's an excellent example in the NSM book about what'll happen eventually with graph included.
This is key. It's a good post an a reminder of what happened to me. Huge gains. When I went from a fitness score of 50-60 I improved very fast, but it was easy to increase that load. From 60-70 took longer, but the increase in the load was still proportional to my previous progress (my improvement graph looks incredibly similar to sirpoc load v 5k time, in that it's linear).
It's still linear, but to get a fitness score over 70 is incredibly hard for me, but when I got to 73 I improved again. But the time it took me in terms of weeks and months to get from 70-73 was more than 60-70 combined. This is also talked about in the book but I think most people are overlooking. As you say, it's harder just to maintain your current level of fitness, let alone improve it, like it was easier down the curve.
Paul has no reason to listen to me. But I did share my example many pages back of training for he shorter stuff by adding intensity. Whereas this was a short term fix with a tiny upturn in performance at very short distances (specificity I realised was overrated), in the end the reduced load took a hit and I got significantly worse in 10k and up. Until I just accepted at this level I need to be much more patient and over many months I'm back to chipping away and just set a new 10k pb this weekend.
This is key. It's a good post an a reminder of what happened to me. Huge gains. When I went from a fitness score of 50-60 I improved very fast, but it was easy to increase that load. From 60-70 took longer, but the increase in the load was still proportional to my previous progress (my improvement graph looks incredibly similar to sirpoc load v 5k time, in that it's linear).
It's still linear, but to get a fitness score over 70 is incredibly hard for me, but when I got to 73 I improved again. But the time it took me in terms of weeks and months to get from 70-73 was more than 60-70 combined. This is also talked about in the book but I think most people are overlooking. As you say, it's harder just to maintain your current level of fitness, let alone improve it, like it was easier down the curve.
Paul has no reason to listen to me. But I did share my example many pages back of training for he shorter stuff by adding intensity. Whereas this was a short term fix with a tiny upturn in performance at very short distances (specificity I realised was overrated), in the end the reduced load took a hit and I got significantly worse in 10k and up. Until I just accepted at this level I need to be much more patient and over many months I'm back to chipping away and just set a new 10k pb this weekend.
How much did your sheer volume (hours and distance) and subT sessions structure fluctuate during these timeframes? I am at the upper end of vanilla (7.5h/week, about 100km) but I don’t have more time to invest on running, so my load will formally stagnate from here on. I can maybe run 65’ instead of 60’ on easy days, or occasionally move from 30-35’ of SubT to 40’, but I can’t make the commitment to make it to the “next level” (doubles, longer subT sessions). I enjoy this schedule and will keep it up regardless of improvements, and I’m still improving (ran 3301 in the 10k this weekend, previous PB in 2023 3347 out of Daniels) but I’m curious to understand where people squeeze that extra, besides what sirpoc has shown in the book and on Strava.
To those people reporting stagnation then breakthroughs, did you actually improve your load or kept it somewhat flat?
I’m this guy! It was actually a 3:23 in Brighton 2025 and now a 2:59 10 months later. I thought I saw Sirpoc standing by the sidelines but was very confused and then I saw him cycling alongside me and I had a chance to chat to him! Honestly it gave me so much more fuel in the tank!
I started NSM vanilla from may to November and then started to do the marathon adaptations pretty faithfully over a 12 week period (time not distance based intervals).
I only started running in Feb 2024, did a half marathon (Oxford) October 2024 (1:41), then Brighton 2025 (3:23) and then at Seville I pr’ed in the 10k, HM, 30k and full.
another super helpful tip from the sirpoc book (which I devoured) was to practise fuelling and I managed to do a 120grams per hour. I’m on the bigger side (6 ‘1 and 73kg) so this was quite crucial
In terms of the CTL going up and down; that's just due to backing off in the last few days before races. If I was running 6-7 hours a week, I probably wouldn't back off as much, but I personally don't see the point in racing if you know you're not gonna be able to get the best out of yourself because you're too fatigued. I'm training to race, not racing to train.
First of all, thanks for sharing all your thinking and data publicly. It cannot be easy for random dudes on a forum to dissect it and share their opinions on it without you asking for it.
One question about what you said here. Does that mean you don't subscribe to the idea that higher CTL correlates to better race results? Because looking at your CTL chart, your CTL now is basically the same as it was at the end of May last year. Thats almost a year without increasing it. You did increase it greatly for the marathon block, but later it dropped back down and then just hovered at the same value. If we are to believe that the highest driver for performance is just adding more load, then the your strategy with tapering seems to hinder your progression. Ofc if you don't subscribe to this idea, then it doesn't really matter for you.
I’m this guy! It was actually a 3:23 in Brighton 2025 and now a 2:59 10 months later. I thought I saw Sirpoc standing by the sidelines but was very confused and then I saw him cycling alongside me and I had a chance to chat to him! Honestly it gave me so much more fuel in the tank!
I started NSM vanilla from may to November and then started to do the marathon adaptations pretty faithfully over a 12 week period (time not distance based intervals).
I only started running in Feb 2024, did a half marathon (Oxford) October 2024 (1:41), then Brighton 2025 (3:23) and then at Seville I pr’ed in the 10k, HM, 30k and full.
another super helpful tip from the sirpoc book (which I devoured) was to practise fuelling and I managed to do a 120grams per hour. I’m on the bigger side (6 ‘1 and 73kg) so this was quite crucial
anyways I don’t know what else to say! But super happy to answer any questions if they are helpful
I saw your post on his Strava saying you thought you were hallucinating lol what a random first time to meet the dude! Also I think says we were all know about sirpoc that he's just a good guy , that he can drop out of a marathon and not cry over it and even encourage a fellow runner. Seems he kept in good spirits.
How many weeks did you practice for the fueling? Honestly I think the fueling in the book is correct I just almost find it more intimidating than the marathon itself. Has anyone else managed the full 120g an hour or even more?
I'm glad you did time over distance, I am doing the same for London and maybe I have a chance of sub 3 as well. It's super cool we have these posts and the real world feedback keeps coming it's hard to see past this for me as my best bet got sub 3.
Paul is allowed to leave the cult. Goodness people. Not that he's doing anything crazy & he still said NSM is the way for people training less than him.
Roughly from memory - he's still doing 3 x 3k (@ marathon pace), 1k reps but a little faster with hill repeats after 6 reps. Other workout is 400s with 30 sec rests in sets of 5 with 60 rest between sets. 400s workout is only one I'd be concerned about because that sounds brutal to me.
With his aerobic base this should increase load & still be relatively safe or not tip the scale too much since people keep using that scale model. And he said he's only doing it temporarily. Reminds me of a safer & more aerobic Hadd phase 2 where a lot of guys saw huge gains & stayed in it for a long time before going back to phase 1 (base).
First of all, thanks for sharing all your thinking and data publicly. It cannot be easy for random dudes on a forum to dissect it and share their opinions on it without you asking for it.
One question about what you said here. Does that mean you don't subscribe to the idea that higher CTL correlates to better race results? Because looking at your CTL chart, your CTL now is basically the same as it was at the end of May last year. Thats almost a year without increasing it. You did increase it greatly for the marathon block, but later it dropped back down and then just hovered at the same value. If we are to believe that the highest driver for performance is just adding more load, then the your strategy with tapering seems to hinder your progression. Ofc if you don't subscribe to this idea, then it doesn't really matter for you.
I am coach of a group of runners. To me, this is a good point.
I was skeptical at first, but in my mind one of the most key aspects of the book is fact in what I am seeing in my athletes:
The prominent driver of gains is from the impact of load itself, rather than the composition of the workouts. (I apologise I don't have the book in front of me I'm paraphrasing).
Now, that is not saying it's the only driver. But over just about all the athletes I've coached, just about all who I have put on NSM - this is the case. The problem as others have pointed out, load is harder to maintain or even increase past a certain point. After sirpoc himself started using the bike, especially a lot in the leadup to the 5k British masters championship he won, I have been using that with a few of the guys I coach with good success to stretch and add load, whilst hovering around the same or just below the same level of running with the cycling in addition , not a replacement. The results, are new PBs over 5k-HM range. But this is quite a number of months down the line.
Like harpoonz posted, the other option is intensity and I had a 1500 runner this worked with, but again as harpoonz reported, the cost was down the line after 4-5 weeks, when they were simply worse. To add in the intensity for the 1500, we traded in fitness for it. Which was fine, for that purpose.
Paul is allowed to leave the cult. Goodness people. Not that he's doing anything crazy & he still said NSM is the way for people training less than him.
Roughly from memory - he's still doing 3 x 3k (@ marathon pace), 1k reps but a little faster with hill repeats after 6 reps. Other workout is 400s with 30 sec rests in sets of 5 with 60 rest between sets. 400s workout is only one I'd be concerned about because that sounds brutal to me.
With his aerobic base this should increase load & still be relatively safe or not tip the scale too much since people keep using that scale model. And he said he's only doing it temporarily. Reminds me of a safer & more aerobic Hadd phase 2 where a lot of guys saw huge gains & stayed in it for a long time before going back to phase 1 (base).
Paul said you need to take chances & I agree.
It's a 50/50 for me. I've been in this position and added in the hills. It worked, sort of, but I soon became unsustainable and had to drop load and eventually after a small improvement, ended up back to the same point or arguably worse.
Will add my name to the side of preferring cross training intensity.
I got back to the same level after going back to basics and although I don't have a bike, I assume this is just as safe, I do 1 very hard session on the elliptical every other week and also +2 extra sessions on it in the mornings of the Tuesday and Thursday on the elliptical and split the long run day into 2.5 hours total but s 50/50 split on mode.
I finally broke 16 doing this. If anyone is interested, I used about 70% to account for what my elliptical workouts counted towards overall load. This seems to have worked out. It's meant the whole package maintains sustainable and I've now started to improve again. I assume, most of us here wouldn't be able to handle pure running doubles, or we wouldn't be posting here!
I’m this guy! It was actually a 3:23 in Brighton 2025 and now a 2:59 10 months later. I thought I saw Sirpoc standing by the sidelines but was very confused and then I saw him cycling alongside me and I had a chance to chat to him! Honestly it gave me so much more fuel in the tank!
I started NSM vanilla from may to November and then started to do the marathon adaptations pretty faithfully over a 12 week period (time not distance based intervals).
I only started running in Feb 2024, did a half marathon (Oxford) October 2024 (1:41), then Brighton 2025 (3:23) and then at Seville I pr’ed in the 10k, HM, 30k and full.
another super helpful tip from the sirpoc book (which I devoured) was to practise fuelling and I managed to do a 120grams per hour. I’m on the bigger side (6 ‘1 and 73kg) so this was quite crucial
anyways I don’t know what else to say! But super happy to answer any questions if they are helpful
Great post. Thanks. Thinking about jumping into the marathon plan myself and also worried about how on earth I am going to fuel that much.
The highlighted part makes me glad I found this thread a long time a go and that this guy really is just a normal guy trying to help us all, no ego and one of the good ones. It's rare in these who driven and sometimes toxic nature of the running community.
I couldn’t agree more- if I had to drop out I’d be nursing a beer on my own in a bar but he looked really cheerful and soaking up the vibes! And he seemed genuinely surprised and pleased that I recognised him!
I started about 11 weeks prior, my biggest tip was downing them in one go, it was much easier on the gut. I used to sip and I think the reflux from that is much worse, whereas if it’s a bolus that’s more in keeping with what your gut expects. I used the unflavoured sis beta (40 grams per pack) and I had 8 (every 20 minutes) + one on the start line. I even used his trick of making a slight opening in each one before the race to make it easier to open.
Some great posts the last few days. Good of Paul to share is thoughts and some great balanced points for him to think over. He's in a spot where you can easily make a case for going multiple ways. For me, I think maybe just consider pure double threshold and go Bakken. Considering he seems to think he'd quite durable.
Some great info about other adaptations about the marathon plan. Maybe the 2:32 Seville guy can shed some information as well.
But to the guy who thought he was hulicinating and seeing sirpoc on the road (really made me lol) thanks for sharing. Especially for guys who aren't going to be able to copy distance but convert to time. Shows you same principles apply.
All in all we are back to a point lately where you enjoy reading the posts and everyone really is just in the same boat of wanting to help. That is what the heart of NSM is all about.
Some great posts the last few days. Good of Paul to share is thoughts and some great balanced points for him to think over. He's in a spot where you can easily make a case for going multiple ways. For me, I think maybe just consider pure double threshold and go Bakken. Considering he seems to think he'd quite durable.
Some great info about other adaptations about the marathon plan. Maybe the 2:32 Seville guy can shed some information as well.
But to the guy who thought he was hulicinating and seeing sirpoc on the road (really made me lol) thanks for sharing. Especially for guys who aren't going to be able to copy distance but convert to time. Shows you same principles apply.
All in all we are back to a point lately where you enjoy reading the posts and everyone really is just in the same boat of wanting to help. That is what the heart of NSM is all about.
Hoping to do a marathon this year but am going to do NSM vanilla (35-45 mpw) all the way through June-July, then doing a 3-month build.
Why only 35-45? And then is 3 months a rapid increase in volume to prep for a marathon? Why not gradually build volume, find out if you’re making progress and feeling fresh at 50-60 with three workouts per week for a couple of months, and then see if you’re able to modify/add for a marathon? It’s conceivable that you could do that within the year but would probably wind up pushing the marathon to next year. Still, that seems like it would fit the method’s central idea of patient training, week after week, month after month, year after year.
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