A chap who is local to me ran 2:32 PB in Seville, ex triathlete and noticed when I've properly looked at his training he has followed the London NSM almost exactly. Wonder if he posts here for some feedback? He was already a very good level athlete before, but seems to have improved a decent amount and is also older now. I think I've actually been in a parkrun with this guy and sirpoc at the same time a few years ago. We both finished way ahead of the man himself!
There was another runner who posted on sirpoc's strava out in Seville who seems to have gone from 3:18 to sub 3 under NSM (he seemed totally weirded out he is in the middle of Seville and just sees sirpoc riding a bike randomly !)
What's interesting again is the classic method seems to have been followed almost entirely. This is especially curious to me as this is around where a few people I know are who I'm trying to steer in this direction.
If either ever has the chance (or even reads this) to give feedback that would be good. Anyone who has given marathon feedback is incredibly useful as I think it's probably the biggest leap of faith for others, myself included.
Interesting new video by the serious hobbyjogger on Youtube on that matter as well...
I saw this video and thought it was interesting, but I'm neither smart enough or fast enough to make any kind of training prescription for Paul.
Interested to see how it goes. Would be interested to see what other more learned folk make of his predicament because I think it's hard to be objective and balanced evaluating ones own training.
The horizontal dotted bar that you see in intervals.icu, the one the seems to be just above my threshold work out paces, does that represent the threshold line?
Interesting new video by the serious hobbyjogger on Youtube on that matter as well...
I saw this video and thought it was interesting, but I'm neither smart enough or fast enough to make any kind of training prescription for Paul.
Interested to see how it goes. Would be interested to see what other more learned folk make of his predicament because I think it's hard to be objective and balanced evaluating ones own training.
I recall Sirpoc also saying that he would have periods of what seemed like a plateau, kept plugging away at Vanilla, and then had a break through. Idk how long Paul has stagnated for but it’ll be interesting to see wha happens.
I recall Sirpoc also saying that he would have periods of what seemed like a plateau, kept plugging away at Vanilla, and then had a break through. Idk how long Paul has stagnated for but it’ll be interesting to see wha happens.
I made HUGE gains on NSM like many others. Then seemed to top out over 6 months of the entire last summer. Just assumed I was totally at my "peak". However, enjoyed the routine so just kept going. After the end of the 6 months almost to the day, I suddenly broke through again one day and paces at all distances up to marathon and down to a 5k were suddenly 5-6 seconds per/km faster. It's just harder and slower to build load, the higher you get. Both in terms of finding the time to add the load itself and the diminishing gains they bring. But you definitely shouldn't panic into something. I would guess Paul is around the point where gains can be had but you need even more patience and consistency. Or you just risk it and roll the dice. But I am glad my habit just made me stick with it and it paid off.
I saw this video and thought it was interesting, but I'm neither smart enough or fast enough to make any kind of training prescription for Paul.
Interested to see how it goes. Would be interested to see what other more learned folk make of his predicament because I think it's hard to be objective and balanced evaluating ones own training.
From what I understand, NSM is about ever increasing load in a manageable way. Higher the CTL, the faster the races. Looking at his CTL chart, it seems to be pretty flat with lots of ups and downs. Not really what NSM is about.
I made HUGE gains on NSM like many others. Then seemed to top out over 6 months of the entire last summer. Just assumed I was totally at my "peak". However, enjoyed the routine so just kept going. After the end of the 6 months almost to the day, I suddenly broke through again one day and paces at all distances up to marathon and down to a 5k were suddenly 5-6 seconds per/km faster. It's just harder and slower to build load, the higher you get. Both in terms of finding the time to add the load itself and the diminishing gains they bring. But you definitely shouldn't panic into something. I would guess Paul is around the point where gains can be had but you need even more patience and consistency. Or you just risk it and roll the dice. But I am glad my habit just made me stick with it and it paid off.
I hope people listen and understand this. It's a great post. The issue is this basically.
The book explains this well I'm a graph. It's relatively easy initially to build load and breakthrough. But then, as you get faster it feels like progress will get less. You just eat easy aerobic gains early quite quickly that it's perceptionally harder.
I was on NSM early, when there was about 300 guys on Strava group. I've had two 4 month periods where it felt like I plateaued, then made an unexpected breakthrough without changing a thing. All of this happened after the first year.
I made HUGE gains on NSM like many others. Then seemed to top out over 6 months of the entire last summer. Just assumed I was totally at my "peak". However, enjoyed the routine so just kept going. After the end of the 6 months almost to the day, I suddenly broke through again one day and paces at all distances up to marathon and down to a 5k were suddenly 5-6 seconds per/km faster. It's just harder and slower to build load, the higher you get. Both in terms of finding the time to add the load itself and the diminishing gains they bring. But you definitely shouldn't panic into something. I would guess Paul is around the point where gains can be had but you need even more patience and consistency. Or you just risk it and roll the dice. But I am glad my habit just made me stick with it and it paid off.
I hope people listen and understand this. It's a great post. The issue is this basically.
The book explains this well I'm a graph. It's relatively easy initially to build load and breakthrough. But then, as you get faster it feels like progress will get less. You just eat easy aerobic gains early quite quickly that it's perceptionally harder.
I was on NSM early, when there was about 300 guys on Strava group. I've had two 4 month periods where it felt like I plateaued, then made an unexpected breakthrough without changing a thing. All of this happened after the first year.
In Paul's defence, I think what he said is he didn't just plateau but went backwards (at least in terms of his 10k race times).
So we're not talking about just a plateau but a regression.
Interesting new video by the serious hobbyjogger on Youtube on that matter as well...
I saw this video and thought it was interesting, but I'm neither smart enough or fast enough to make any kind of training prescription for Paul.
Interested to see how it goes. Would be interested to see what other more learned folk make of his predicament because I think it's hard to be objective and balanced evaluating ones own training.
A key element -which is also stated in the video- is that he is running more volume than standard NSM adopters. And I think once a hobbyjogger pushes north of 9-10h of weekly running, recovery becomes challenging. So that's my first point: maybe he's over his recoverability ceiling at the moment. This is even more relevant as he also states that he's basically always dealing with some niggles. You should err on the side of caution and keep your training load well below the point in which niggles appear, in my opinion. But if he values performance over enjoyment, I don't judge him. My PB on 10k is 33 seconds slower than his so who am I to judge?
Then there is the idea of a bad race or a streak of bad races and how to deal with them. If you think about it, a good race tells so much more than a bad race. With an equal level of fitness, there are many confounding factors that can hide behind a subpar performance (heat, illness, wind, sleep, course, poor motivation, tactical mistakes...) while on the contrary you cannot fake a good race (with the exception of downhill courses). So in a way you should draw conclusions on your training out of your best races, not worst ones. Above all, you should monitor your training performances in order to gauge your fitness. In the video he shows a plot of his SubT paces which have been stagnating in the +-6" range in the last 30 weeks. That doesn't sound too strange to me, considering seasonal conditions' variation and the fact that he did a marathon block in between. Fitness does not disappear magically. Racing results are not synonimous to fitness, however.
I think NSM vanilla actually lacks some aspects of strenght-stiffness-coordination training to support running at fast (relative to one's threshold) paces. Magness' observation in this regard is indeed right. It should not be difficult to insert this kind of supporting work, in minimal effective doses, without disrupting the balance. Warmups with with a couple of strides at mile pace on workout days, some minimal at home bodyweight exercises... These aspects however are "supporting", not "building" performance. Performance is built by consistency of sustainable stimulus, which is precisely what NSM brings on the table.
I'd like to say a couple things on periodization and tapering but that would make too long of a post.
Paul did say a couple of times that he thought NSM was still great for people doing around 5-8hrs a week. Just a very quick look on his strava and he is regularly around 11-12hrs. But yes, as someone else said, there are a lot of peaks and troughs in his intervals screenshots, which stood out to me as well. It is of course totally fine to try something else - of course it is. But there are so many variables, and I’d start with looking at his pacing in his disappointing races, and asking if he was going out at a pace he couldn’t sustain, purely because he wasn’t as fit as he’d hoped. To suddenly start saying it’s about lack of top end speed seemed off to me. He seems a great guy and I do like his channel, and I wish him all the best regardless.
In Paul's defence, I think what he said is he didn't just plateau but went backwards (at least in terms of his 10k race times).
So we're not talking about just a plateau but a regression.
This is a good point. Add me to the list who have plateaued and then gone again. But you could also argue I went backwards. 20 seconds slower in a few 10ks. But it's all within the realms of day to day variability. Paul seems like one of the good guys. But two things for me:
He's 1. Panicked into doing a lot of volume. I don't think he's necessarily as consistent as you would hope to me. Inconsistency for me can be a sign of fatigue.
2. He's panicking in general. He probably knows he is. There's so many variables and other things outside of running (i dealt with low iron and had to fit that) , you need to really isolate the problem before you throw out the baby with the bathwater IMO.
Jason Fitzgerald’s take, very similar to Steve Magness:
“Just saw someone say they do 3 threshold workouts / week. I beg you... hire a coach. Read a running book. Learn more so you don't bang your head against a wall like this. There is a more effective, less boring way to train than doing the same type of workout over and over again”
“Norwegian Singles you say? A few points: 1/ These should be done SUB lactate threshold. Not threshold, but slower than threshold. This proves my point. 2/ Only focusing on LT workouts underdevelops anaerobic fitness, leaving a big fitness hole for those training for <10k
3/ Hill sprints/strides and short reps are recommended alongside sub-threshold workouts to maintain speed. This is critical and usually ignored. 4/ If you're more of speed-oriented runner, you'll feel flat/stale and won't progress as much as a more balanced approach.
5/ Overly focusing on LT means that you must ignore VO2 Max workouts. This isn't always smart. If periodized, it's often fine. 6/ This might be a good approach for base training. But it's HARD base training for more advanced runners. Not for most adults. 7/ Ultimately, this approach lacks balance and must be viewed as temporary. Fine for a brief period of base training, but it must be grown out of.”
I've had my 12 year old son on the NWS method for about 2 months now. The best he's ever run the 1600 in was a 6:09 last summer - we live and race at altitude.
I trained him the traditional way before this.
Last weekend he ran a 5:45. He has not run one single training session any faster than 7:10ish pace. He also broke 21 in the 5K for the first time the week before his 5:45.
After his 5:45 he came up to me and said, "This training works." Ha ha!
In Paul's defence, I think what he said is he didn't just plateau but went backwards (at least in terms of his 10k race times).
So we're not talking about just a plateau but a regression.
This is a good point. Add me to the list who have plateaued and then gone again. But you could also argue I went backwards. 20 seconds slower in a few 10ks. But it's all within the realms of day to day variability. Paul seems like one of the good guys. But two things for me:
He's 1. Panicked into doing a lot of volume. I don't think he's necessarily as consistent as you would hope to me. Inconsistency for me can be a sign of fatigue.
2. He's panicking in general. He probably knows he is. There's so many variables and other things outside of running (i dealt with low iron and had to fit that) , you need to really isolate the problem before you throw out the baby with the bathwater IMO.
Yo Paul why not run your subT a little faster? Workout look like they’re sub sub T. HR is only comparison I have to sirpoc and Paul’s got a lot of workouts that don’t surpass 160 HR. Sirpoc84 will touch 180 (at the very end and only sometimes) and this guy is almost 10 years older. Undercooking better than getting hurt and overcooking and this running still helps with base, just hard to expect to improve if you’re relatively chilling on workouts AND going extremely easy on easy days. Ya ya I know John korir runs 8:30 and 9 minute easy days but he also goes hard AF on workouts too (and has run a boatload of miles already)
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