The question should be more asked is what did so many hobbyjoggers do wrong before they jumped on NSM ?
That's simple. They didn't do enough volume or load, because they did too many hard workouts. Or their coaches or training plan put an unnecessary emphasis on stuff hobby runners and cyclists don't need to worry about - which is anything above LT2.
There is obviously a point where consistent load will top you out. But it's obviously not guys on 5-10 hours a week, where a huge base will outrun or outride just about any plan that has intensity as it's regular focus.
Obviously more and more people are understanding this at amateur level, but there are also a lot of minds still struggling to catch up. Despite all the evidence.
It's not that anyone was doing anything inherently wrong. No training is "wrong". This training is just better, given the restrictions and limitations amateurs have.
If I'm talking hobby joggers, I think it's the opposite: they didn't do enough hard workouts (at least in the sense of enough hard workouts to get the benefit they need).
And then, when they did do hard workouts, they did them without rhyme or reason and either got injured, or didn't do them consistently enough to see the benefits. I know of very few off-the-shelf training plans, or half-knowledgeable coaches, that result in a hobby jogger on a plan that has too many hard workouts. You only need to look at the people you follow on Strava to see this.
One of the best benefits of repeated subT work is the consistently high workload that I think hobby joggers often ignore or just haven't stuck to: enough hard work to get better but not enough to get injured and/or lose consistency.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
And then, when they did do hard workouts, they did them without rhyme or reason and either got injured, or didn't do them consistently enough to see the benefits. I know of very few off-the-shelf training plans, or half-knowledgeable coaches, that result in a hobby jogger on a plan that has too many hard workouts.
Depends on what you mean by “hard workouts.”
Look at some fairly moderate Pfitz plans based on mileage. Hey, do 7 or 8 at T pace. Cool if your T pace is 5:00-5:30/mi. I mean, that pace isn’t hard running, but still: What percent of hobbyjoggers with 6:30 and above T pace do you think can get cooked on that? And I LIKE Pfitz.
I've been doing vanilla NSM for about a year, with a few twists and turns (like a Summer of Malmo hybrid), but overall happy with the results. Converting paces to VDOT, I've improved from a 55 to a 60. My problem is recurring nerve irritation that seems to be coming from the easy runs, where my poor easy form is causing the nerve that runs down the back of my leg to be stretched. On the other hand, I feel great on the sub-T runs.
My plan is 60 minutes every day, with a 15 minute warmup, 3x10 minute intervals at probably MP+15, and a 15 minute cooldown. I calculated the load and this theoretically gives me bang on the same load as vanilla, just with a 50/50 split between easy and intervals, instead of 80/20. Ideally, I can use the time to work on resetting my form and ease back towards vanilla.
I have similar thoughts on this. My main problems with running over the years has been stacking slow runs and specially long runs with bad form. Would you care to start a thread on the NSM readit?
. My problem is recurring nerve irritation that seems to be coming from the easy runs, where my poor easy form is causing the nerve that runs down the back of my leg to be stretched. On the other hand, I feel great on the sub-T runs.
Interesting, I have been doing all my easy runs very easy pace for a few months now and noticing a lot more impact on the upper gastroc area, starting to feel some strain. Upping the pace just a bit reduces the downward impact and feels much better. I might need to run easy a touch faster than recommended.
Nah, he's definitely a bit slower currently, at least for a marathon. Best case is probably 2:30 but wouldn't be surprised by 2:35 either.
This is about right. He's just not running enough. He even said so much on Reddit, that don't expect anywhere near a PB and also hopefully nobody is reading into this being a new marathon "plan". Hopefully he gets to enjoy a marathon with no pressure for once. Duathlon surely is the plan with so much increase in cycling.
This is about right. He's just not running enough. He even said so much on Reddit, that don't expect anywhere near a PB and also hopefully nobody is reading into this being a new marathon "plan". Hopefully he gets to enjoy a marathon with no pressure for once. Duathlon surely is the plan with so much increase in cycling.
Probably something like 2:32, at a guess.
If he breaks 2:30 off this hybrid and lack of mileage approach, I'm buying a peloton first thing Monday.
Nah, he's definitely a bit slower currently, at least for a marathon. Best case is probably 2:30 but wouldn't be surprised by 2:35 either.
This is about right. He's just not running enough. He even said so much on Reddit, that don't expect anywhere near a PB and also hopefully nobody is reading into this being a new marathon "plan". Hopefully he gets to enjoy a marathon with no pressure for once. Duathlon surely is the plan with so much increase in cycling.
Probably something like 2:32, at a guess.
One thing that is a factor is that the conditions look nigh on perfect in Seville for Sunday. So although he may not be in PB shape I hope the conditions mean he can put a good account of himself out there.
This is about right. He's just not running enough. He even said so much on Reddit, that don't expect anywhere near a PB and also hopefully nobody is reading into this being a new marathon "plan". Hopefully he gets to enjoy a marathon with no pressure for once. Duathlon surely is the plan with so much increase in cycling.
Probably something like 2:32, at a guess.
I mean we all love the dude. But if he breaks 2:30 I would be amazed. He's incredibly fit, but not marathon fit. This isn't a knock, he said it himself and it's obvious he is in great shape for shorter stuff and cycling time trials, but not a marathon.
Considering he had the balls to drink a pint and eat chocolate dick bricks before London, he should go with São Miguel and churros. Maybe add some patatas bravas and aioli for good measure.
One thing that is a factor is that the conditions look nigh on perfect in Seville for Sunday. So although he may not be in PB shape I hope the conditions mean he can put a good account of himself out there.
Hopefully he just enjoys it. The pressure going into London must have been huge, with the unorthodox training and a high goal with a reasonable amount of hobby jogging eyes on him.
He has been quite open that he can't PB. We can all see from his training, it's not really anywhere near the same marathon training level. So likewise, we can all see, that he can't PB.
But that in some ways will be a nice spot to be in. Zero pressure, I'm sure he still has a goal and test of himself in mind, but just enjoy the day.
I think some people forget this is a method (the best method?) for holly joggers. Canova etc may be OK for professionals, with their already strong aerobic engines and unlimited time. But if you have less than 8 hours a week to train, and are aerobically underdeveloped, then this is probably best. Comparing NSM to anything the elites do is not comparing oranges with oranges
And for what it’s worth, Renato says to run easy long runs at 8:20 / mile pace during base building if you’re a 6 min/mile marathoner. Which kinda lines up right with NSM. I think a lot of people are around 125-130 bpm at this pace.
It sound like EZ pace is appx. 2:00-2:30 slower than goal MP in the NSM context...
9:20/mi. => 7:00-7:30 MP, or would it be narrower? (1:30-2:00 slower than MP, therefore 7:20-7:50/mi. GMP)?
I was completely wrong with my post. Canova wrote 75-85% of marathon PB for “long slow run” which ends up being 6:54-7:30 pace for 30-45 km run for a 6 min/mile marathoner.
I learned that his time and percent conversion are not 6/0.75 = 8. He uses [(6 min/mile) / 100] x 25 + 6 min/mile = 7.5 min/mile = 7:30 min/mile
So it’s definitely a very doable run, but not NSM easy <130 HR for 2.5 hours style run.
Main point of posting link was just seeing the cool anecdote of coach saying his team was fresh for XC season compared to years past when incorporating a summer of subT. Then introduce some specificity later on (similar to how the NSM marathon plan is base of SubT then marathon specificity).
For marathon, I’ve seen for myself at least that it’s more like 1:30-2:00 min/mile slower than race MP. Many days well above 2 min/mile slower but that’s a very relaxed staring at the birds enjoying the sun run
That's simple. They didn't do enough volume or load, because they did too many hard workouts. Or their coaches or training plan put an unnecessary emphasis on stuff hobby runners and cyclists don't need to worry about - which is anything above LT2.
There is obviously a point where consistent load will top you out. But it's obviously not guys on 5-10 hours a week, where a huge base will outrun or outride just about any plan that has intensity as it's regular focus.
Obviously more and more people are understanding this at amateur level, but there are also a lot of minds still struggling to catch up. Despite all the evidence.
It's not that anyone was doing anything inherently wrong. No training is "wrong". This training is just better, given the restrictions and limitations amateurs have.
You are dumb and talk nonsense.
I think he's almost certainly forgotten more than you ever knew about training so you should probably stop calling him dumb and take notes.
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