I always feel weird standing in place by the road or street when cars drive by. I even had a car stop once & ask me if I needed help, lol. Now I just stare at my watch & think maybe cars will then know I'm a runner & timing my break, lol.
I'd feel fine if I was on a track or running path but those are all snow covered.
How much am I giving up (or not) by switching from standing to slow jog intervals? I find standing rest to be boring and it makes the reps seem more stressful and clinical. Thanks.
Try a walking rest. Less boring, zero risk. Slow jog is probably fine too, as long as it's easy and not steady pace. Of all the things that matter, the difference between standing or walking or a slow jog is probably pretty low.
From the Book of Sir Poc 2:48:
sirpoc himself wrote:
How you choose to take the rest is your decision. Personally, I prefer to stop completely for a moment, then walk and perhaps job lightly to build back up to speed when my watch signals the start of the next set of repetitions are due to start. Ultimately, the rest period is yours to use as you see fit. Don't overthink it, and do what feels right for you. You don't get any meaningful extra fitness for cutting them short or jogging.
Speed and specificity don't bring big injury risks as far as you know how to best perform them. You got to stay away from ' killer workouts' and only do the paces/ efforts with safe margin.
I think if you read the vast majority of NSM success stories, the most common factor is removing speed or fast pace stuff away from people's training. This seems to have brought the biggest chance in staying fit, healthy and consistent. Myself included. The internet is littered now with hundreds if not thousands of people saying the same thing. Nobody has really dived deep to explain this. But it can't be a coincidence.
Maybe we were all just not understanding how to balance it, as you suggest. But, more likely, up to a certain level of hobby running, anything above LT2 is probably sub optimal and a hinderence, or at the very least a gamble on how it will eradicate the consistency NSM brings, which seems to trump just about anything
This thread is a giant case study really. The best thing being, it's not just beginners but hardened and seasoned runners who have made progress after years of trying to find the balance you hint at unsuccessfully.
Add me to others who have had what would be considered top coaches, not getting anywhere near the level of progress for me, opposed to that I am having now with one random guys self published book from the internet. It's kind of wild and if you told me a year ago finding a random thread on Letsrun would send me from a 17:30 lifetime guy to 15:54 I would have said you are mad, considering I have been at the mid 17 level for about 8 years and just assumed that was my ceiling. Turns out I was just overcooked, inconsistent and focused way too much on speed.
I will come out and say it, if the testimonials keep increasing in load (see what I did there) consistently, the need for coaches may diminish to an extent, esp. among inexperienced runfluencers...!
How much am I giving up (or not) by switching from standing to slow jog intervals? I find standing rest to be boring and it makes the reps seem more stressful and clinical. Thanks.
Is this training going to be for you? Whilst highly concerning is dramatic (as someone else posted) do you have the discipline to train like this?
I know it sounds like a silly thing, but where does it end? Do you then say, I can't be bothered to run as easy as defined it just feels too silly and easy? I think another totally different reason as to why this works so well, is it turns you into a clinical, structured but ultimately disciplined athlete.
Someone wrote a great review about the book, how it's like an onion and you peel back layers. I totally agree with this. There's so many buy-ins across the board that honestly will make you a better runner from sirpoc's amazing book, other than just running subthreshold 3 times a week. In fact, I'm not even convinced that is the most important part anymore?
I will come out and say it, if the testimonials keep increasing in load (see what I did there) consistently, the need for coaches may diminish to an extent, esp. among inexperienced runfluencers...!
Whilst the book has clearly done fantastic sales, (some of the highest reviews you'll find for a running book?) you won't see influencers, coaches etc. really reviewing it or praising it. Why would they? It's inadvertently putting them out of a job or holding them accountable to a higher standard, and a lot of them are grifters and charlatans. The UK market seems to be more flooded than most with this.
Ironically, the one who seems to have embraced it, FOD, has probably increased his viewership, got great views and admitted past mistakes when he's gone in on NSM (he did also mention he was trying to get sirpoc to do another bit of content with him, maybe? I imagine that is difficult lol)
This will sound very lame, but it's by a very intelligent guy who is effectively one of us and has provided something that is applicable to most of us. It's pretty unique in that everything is designed to be optimal for hobby jogging, rather than we get some rushed plan that is a cut and paste with bits missing from what elites do.
We have here, Strava and Reddit, as previously pointed out, hundreds if not thousands of testimonials of how it's totally changed people's running life and enjoyment, or success in the form of results. Ultimately that is the part that is hard to ignore, despite it challenging a lot of long held running beliefs, of which runners and coaches are often quite uncomfortable doing. I include myself in that. It's definitely unsettled some influencers who have never really had their viewed challenged inca meaningful way.
It took me a long time to come around to the idea this might actually be a thing. I probably even upvoted at some point, the posters early on who were saying this is stupid and this training won't get you far unless you are very slow. The book sealed it for me. Clearly this isn't just some random guy on the internet which was my initial impression of such thread.
How much am I giving up (or not) by switching from standing to slow jog intervals? I find standing rest to be boring and it makes the reps seem more stressful and clinical. Thanks.
Is this training going to be for you?
I know it sounds like a silly thing, but where does it end? Do you then say, I can't be bothered to run as easy as defined it just feels too silly and easy?
I can’t tell if this reply is sarcasm or actually serious.
How much am I giving up (or not) by switching from standing to slow jog intervals? I find standing rest to be boring and it makes the reps seem more stressful and clinical. Thanks.
Try a walking rest. Less boring, zero risk. Slow jog is probably fine too, as long as it's easy and not steady pace. Of all the things that matter, the difference between standing or walking or a slow jog is probably pretty low.
From the Book of Sir Poc 2:48:
sirpoc himself wrote:
How you choose to take the rest is your decision. Personally, I prefer to stop completely for a moment, then walk and perhaps job lightly to build back up to speed when my watch signals the start of the next set of repetitions are due to start. Ultimately, the rest period is yours to use as you see fit. Don't overthink it, and do what feels right for you. You don't get any meaningful extra fitness for cutting them short or jogging.
Agreed, although one thing I think does make a difference is jogging the rests if you're more of a sprinter (I know, the old ft/st thing again). I used to walk them and started every rep up to the last one far too fast and springy, even if I tried to keep it down. Now I jog and it's much easier to keep an even keel as my anaerobic system doesn't recover as much (or tendons or muscles or whatever it actually is). I do 60s rest for all rep lengths, 3-10min.
Jason Fitzgerald’s take, very similar to Steve Magness:
“Just saw someone say they do 3 threshold workouts / week. I beg you... hire a coach. Read a running book. Learn more so you don't bang your head against a wall like this. There is a more effective, less boring way to train than doing the same type of workout over and over again”
“Norwegian Singles you say? A few points: 1/ These should be done SUB lactate threshold. Not threshold, but slower than threshold. This proves my point. 2/ Only focusing on LT workouts underdevelops anaerobic fitness, leaving a big fitness hole for those training for <10k
3/ Hill sprints/strides and short reps are recommended alongside sub-threshold workouts to maintain speed. This is critical and usually ignored. 4/ If you're more of speed-oriented runner, you'll feel flat/stale and won't progress as much as a more balanced approach.
5/ Overly focusing on LT means that you must ignore VO2 Max workouts. This isn't always smart. If periodized, it's often fine. 6/ This might be a good approach for base training. But it's HARD base training for more advanced runners. Not for most adults. 7/ Ultimately, this approach lacks balance and must be viewed as temporary. Fine for a brief period of base training, but it must be grown out of.”
Jason Fitzgerald’s take, very similar to Steve Magness:
“Just saw someone say they do 3 threshold workouts / week. I beg you... hire a coach. Read a running book. Learn more so you don't bang your head against a wall like this. There is a more effective, less boring way to train than doing the same type of workout over and over again”
“Norwegian Singles you say? A few points: 1/ These should be done SUB lactate threshold. Not threshold, but slower than threshold. This proves my point. 2/ Only focusing on LT workouts underdevelops anaerobic fitness, leaving a big fitness hole for those training for <10k
3/ Hill sprints/strides and short reps are recommended alongside sub-threshold workouts to maintain speed. This is critical and usually ignored. 4/ If you're more of speed-oriented runner, you'll feel flat/stale and won't progress as much as a more balanced approach.
5/ Overly focusing on LT means that you must ignore VO2 Max workouts. This isn't always smart. If periodized, it's often fine. 6/ This might be a good approach for base training. But it's HARD base training for more advanced runners. Not for most adults. 7/ Ultimately, this approach lacks balance and must be viewed as temporary. Fine for a brief period of base training, but it must be grown out of.”
I do find this strange. But, he's probably not looked into it. As someone pointed out earlier, the best case study is this thread or the vast amount of people who have dropped all the stuff he thinks is important, yet got faster.
We aren't talking new runners. We are talking seasoned runners. A lot of guys in the range of 17-21 minutes. The type who might hire a coach if they have spare income are exactly the ones getting faster using NSM. In huge numbers.
You would have to agree with the point also this thread is a great case study.
Now, if he's talking about elites, again that's a different scenario. But it's hard to argue for anyone who has really looked into it that this isn't working incredible for a huge percentage of hobby runners. Again, I understand totally why guys like this are gonna throw doubt. It makes a mockery of everything they then promote themselves.
Also, I would add, I genuinely think NSM is as good a book as you can read about running or training (in response to go read a book comment).
I do find this strange. But, he's probably not looked into it. As someone pointed out earlier, the best case study is this thread or the vast amount of people who have dropped all the stuff he thinks is important, yet got faster.
We aren't talking new runners. We are talking seasoned runners. A lot of guys in the range of 17-21 minutes. The type who might hire a coach if they have spare income are exactly the ones getting faster using NSM. In huge numbers.
You would have to agree with the point also this thread is a great case study.
Now, if he's talking about elites, again that's a different scenario. But it's hard to argue for anyone who has really looked into it that this isn't working incredible for a huge percentage of hobby runners. Again, I understand totally why guys like this are gonna throw doubt. It makes a mockery of everything they then promote themselves.
Also, I would add, I genuinely think NSM is as good a book as you can read about running or training (in response to go read a book comment).
Another thing is actually 5-10k seems to be where people are flourishing. Specifically opposite to the guys point (who is he anyway?).
Also, in the book it doesn't actually tell you NOT to do these things. The evidence is presented and it's then up to you.
Coaches hate runners repeating the same routine week in week out. This is essentially what makes them redundant.
Well, that's not entirely correct. Alberto Salazar was among the coaches ( inclusive me 😃) who expressed the human body likes repetitive workouts and improves from them. 🧙♂️
I really enjoy running super easy. I like turning my brain off and not thinking for an hour. I don't like how in the 60 seconds I'm doing a standing rest I'm thinking about the rep the whole time. It's also really cold where I live. I like pretty much every part of the method except standing rests.
I really enjoy running super easy. I like turning my brain off and not thinking for an hour. I don't like how in the 60 seconds I'm doing a standing rest I'm thinking about the rep the whole time. It's also really cold where I live. I like pretty much every part of the method except standing rests.
Standing rest is not "part of the method". You are welcome to stand, walk or jog your rest. Do whatever you are more comfortable with. HOW you recover is not part of this method.
I will come out and say it, if the testimonials keep increasing in load (see what I did there) consistently, the need for coaches may diminish to an extent, esp. among inexperienced runfluencers...!
Whilst the book has clearly done fantastic sales, (some of the highest reviews you'll find for a running book?) you won't see influencers, coaches etc. really reviewing it or praising it. Why would they? It's inadvertently putting them out of a job or holding them accountable to a higher standard, and a lot of them are grifters and charlatans. The UK market seems to be more flooded than most with this.
Ironically, the one who seems to have embraced it, FOD, has probably increased his viewership, got great views and admitted past mistakes when he's gone in on NSM (he did also mention he was trying to get sirpoc to do another bit of content with him, maybe? I imagine that is difficult lol)
Just because new literature and training science has come out that enables the targeted population to be more independent does NOT take away the need for coaching. Runners are typically highly intrinsically motivated, but there are still folks out there that want, need and are willing to pay for coaching. However, in my opinion, you're a pretty sh*te coach if you don't update your training methods/philosophy to what current research is finding.
It's the same deal for physical therapists, strength coaches, even personal trainers. Something new comes out, with real, verifiable evidence of being more efficient at it's training goals, you implement it. The PROBLEM is the infatuation with "magic" workouts that are dealbreakers for your fitness if you don't do them.
Consistency, after all, in every fitness pursuit, trumps ALL. This method just happens to push the envelope JUST close enough to the line in intensity and load for the respective athlete where consistency is VERY manageable.
This is coming from a coach. You'd be stupid not to have your athletes use this training method if they want to improve at aerobic-based running events.
Since reading the book I've started to use intervals.icu much more frequently. Following recent races, my LTHR has increased by about 4bpm (based on 98% of race HR over 1hr period). I use the Coros arm HR monitor, and I'm generally happy with the readings. If anything, the average HR over a race distance would likely read lower, since the connection does drop occasionally.
Can I trust this increase, and use it to push a little harder during sub-T intervals?