J. Michael Fox wrote:
Puica wrote:
Maricica Puica 4:17.44 wr in the Mile in 1982.
Clean?
Clean...and green. ?
J. Michael Fox wrote:
Puica wrote:
Maricica Puica 4:17.44 wr in the Mile in 1982.
Clean?
Clean...and green. ?
restrunner wrote:
Rieti has had 11 times the fastest 800m of the year:
1986, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1996, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
A small meeting in early September. Zürich - for eample - has had 5 times the years fastest 800m. The biggest meeting for decades and starting mich earlier than Rieti.
It's obvious that the times achieved in Rieti should be considered with the same scepticism as the times from Monaco in the last decade. Ovett's 3:30.77 and Coe's 3:29.77 are probably worth something around 3:32 high and 3:31 high. Ovett himself was the one astonished the most by his time.
Ovett was purposely set up for a WR in Rieti (as he had been in his previous race in Koblenz) as an effort to make amends for his woeful tactical performance in Helsinki at the World Champs a few weeks before. He was hindered in Koblenz by poor (slow) pacing on the first lap, ending up running 3:32. The only thing that surprised him in Rieti was that he claimed the wind was quite strong. Ovett himself stated in his biography in 1984 that he should have run 3:28 in 81. Most commentators (including Mel Watman, Chief Editor of AW and one of the world's leading statisticians) had been expecting Coe and/or Ovett to run way under 3:30 since 1980.
Coe had some woeful pacing in all his fastest races over 1500m, and even in Rieti he ran his first 2 laps in 54.0 and 58.0, far from ideal distribution of effort. He also had pretty much no drafting for over 400m in the middle of the race and had Chesire slow him down at the bell. He should have run at least 3:29.0 that day. Maree, a previous WR holder at the distance and a sub 3:30 runner finished 3.5 secs behind. If the track was dodgy, then why didn't he run much fatser? Or Scott, who finished down the field?
In 85, in perhaps his best season, Aouita was on WR schedule at 800m for the 2000m in Rieti, yet missed it by 3 secs! Why squander a WR opportunity on a track that was somehow dodgy? He also only managed a 3:32 high in 87 there.
The difference between Rieti and Monaco, is that the former was the scene of a few great individual performances in random distances on an old (at least up to the late 80's) synthetic track at the peak end of the season, whereas the 'super fast' times on the Monaco track came in the last decade on a top of the range Mondo track that just wasn't around in the 80's. In addition, almost everyone entering the races (over 1500m at least) at Monaco in early July, usually a month away from when they want to be at a peak for major champs, regularly ended up running about 2 secs faster there than anywhere else ALL season.
Who was the better 1500m runner with the best credentials out of Steve Ovett or Andrew Wheating?
Both ended their careers with similar pbs (3:30.77 v 3:30.90).
Ovett ran his on the Rieti track in 83, solo for more than the last lap and way in front of anyone else, while Wheating ran his on the Monaco track coming 4th in 2010. Now ask yourself who was aided most by the surface/track they were running on?
About Ovett vs. Wheating, that wasn't about the track. Wheating ran an 8 second pr in that race, I believe, 3:38 to 3:30, after running 1:44 in Paris earlier. Wheating was never healthy and fit after that. It was his first Euro 1500m and his next race in Europe after a stellar college career. His problem was that he didn't know how to run in traffic with his 6'5" frame and late start in track (senior year of hs) and so rarely put himself in position to do anything fast on the pro level. In Paris, he hung way back and still was able to run 1:44. In Monaco, he hung back in near last place in lane 2 but the field was very fast, leader in 53.81/1:51.15/2:47, he continues in lane 2 or the line around the next turn toward 700m, then finally gets into lane 1, though boxed. He looks like he is jogging, still toward the back at about 900m, still way back at 1k. at 1100m he's at the very back of the pack but no longer bunched and there are a lot of people in front of him. After 1200m, he's out near lane 3 to try to get past the field. , so he ended up in spite of himself in excellent position for a fast time with his usual late speed. In my opinion, with different tactics, he could have run under 3:30 that day. The next time you see him at about 1420m, he's gone around all but three guys who are well ahead, and he's on the rail again in fourth. So, he ran a lot of extra ground on this day. Definitely worth sub 3:30 just on that extra distance. The winner, Kiplagat, was 3:29.27.
Ovett had a great, great career and would have had a better one if not for the breathing problems, and he was super-talented and competitive, but I have to say that Wheating was the bigger talent, just as fast at 800/1500. He just lacked the tactical finesse, competitiveness, and health, big problems, obviously.
zxcvzxcv wrote:
Ovett had a great, great career and would have had a better one if not for the breathing problems, and he was super-talented and competitive, but I have to say that Wheating was the bigger talent, just as fast at 800/1500. He just lacked the tactical finesse, competitiveness, and health, big problems, obviously.
LOL.
Wheating had one good run over 1500m and you suggest he was a better talent than someone who ran dozens of 1500s and 1 miles (often front running and/or looking very easy) in the 3:32/3:50 range?
Ovett was the fastest teen in his age group in the UK over 400m, running 47.5, was Olympic champion over 800m (with a faster pb than Wheating, running more than 30 years earlier, and certainly capable of 1:43 low had he been bothered about fast paced efforts), was 5000m Commonwealth Champion, 2mile WR holder, ...... and you have the audacity to claim Wheating was a 'bigger talent'!! Unbelievable!
Deanouk wrote:
LOL.
Wheating had one good run over 1500m and you suggest he was a better talent than someone who ran dozens of 1500s and 1 miles (often front running and/or looking very easy) in the 3:32/3:50 range?
Ovett was the fastest teen in his age group in the UK over 400m, running 47.5, was Olympic champion over 800m (with a faster pb than Wheating, running more than 30 years earlier, and certainly capable of 1:43 low had he been bothered about fast paced efforts), was 5000m Commonwealth Champion, 2mile WR holder, ...... and you have the audacity to claim Wheating was a 'bigger talent'!! Unbelievable!
+1
Deanouk wrote:
and you have the audacity to claim Wheating was a 'bigger talent'!! Unbelievable!
Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport.
eytj57 wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
and you have the audacity to claim Wheating was a 'bigger talent'!! Unbelievable!
Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport.
???? Wheating had a better career than Ovett? A few Olympic medals and world records say otherwise.
???? wrote:
eytj57 wrote:
Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport.
???? Wheating had a better career than Ovett? A few Olympic medals and world records say otherwise.
Try learning English, read my post again, and go away.
Where did I say Wheating had a better career than Ovett?
FFS...
eytj57 wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
and you have the audacity to claim Wheating was a 'bigger talent'!! Unbelievable!
Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport.
I am not being biased, I am being factual and realistic.
- Wheating's pbs are all inferior to Ovett's, despite having the advantage of being around 30+ years later with faster tracks, lighter spikes, etc.
-Wheating broke 3:35 twice! Ovett 20!
- Then there are all the medals and world records Ovett had.
-Their careers tell us about their talent and potential. Ovett is superior in all respects: speed, endurance, tactical ability, etc
-One swallow does not a summer make!
Deanouk wrote:
eytj57 wrote:
Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport.
I am not being biased, I am being factual and realistic.
- Wheating's pbs are all inferior to Ovett's, despite having the advantage of being around 30+ years later with faster tracks, lighter spikes, etc.
-Wheating broke 3:35 twice! Ovett 20!
- Then there are all the medals and world records Ovett had.
-Their careers tell us about their talent and potential. Ovett is superior in all respects: speed, endurance, tactical ability, etc
-One swallow does not a summer make!
Funny how you chose to respond to the other post, not to:
"Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport."
Would you care to?
Thank you.
Deanouk wrote:
eytj57 wrote:
Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport.
I am not being biased, I am being factual and realistic.
- Wheating's pbs are all inferior to Ovett's, despite having the advantage of being around 30+ years later with faster tracks, lighter spikes, etc.
-Wheating broke 3:35 twice! Ovett 20!
- Then there are all the medals and world records Ovett had.
-Their careers tell us about their talent and potential. Ovett is superior in all respects: speed, endurance, tactical ability, etc
-One swallow does not a summer make!
Ovett also broke 3:50 for the mile 5 times as of 1984 and ran 3:50 some 3-4 times. I think ex runner is just trying annoy people on this occasion.
J. Michael Fox wrote:
J. Michael Fox wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL_WektvHo4Only 1 pace maker.
Impressive run.
So talented. Unfortunately he was never the same after he ran into fence in late 1981.
Too juiced too lose wrote:
Coevett wrote:
No evidence aside from that they could have been. At least aside from Kip Keino. Charlie Francis (coach of Ben Johnson) claimed that the IAAF drug tested lots of the athletes at Mexico (just to determine the extent of doping - steroids were not illegal at that time) and found that the entire Kenyan team was roided. Keino was supposedly seriously ill in hospital before jumping out of his bed, running all to the way to the stadium to make the final at the last moment, and running 3:34 at altitude largely solo. Last year he was pretty much convicted of syphoning off millions of dollars intended for young Kenyan athletes into his bank accounts, but got off with it after political pressure from Kenyan MPs.
Further, there is counter-evidence that they did not dope with dangerous drugs, as amphetamines and roids certainly were in the 1960's. Namely, that they are all still here in their eighties, mostly in very good health it seems. Snell suffered a cardiac problem a few years ago and has had a pacemaker fitted, but that's hardly unusual for 80 year old man. Up until that point, he was still an active sportsman competing at world level in several different sports as a master.
British cyclist in the 60s died during a tour stage was on speed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_SimpsonFrom what I understand doctors back in the 60s didn't realize the dangers of speed. And thought they were a cure all. Prescribing them to everyone was common back than. Only later on did they realize the harm.
Amphetamines are still very popular in the US, only the diagnoses have changed; where once they were Rx'd for obesity and "whatever" now they are Rx'd for ADHD, narcolepsy, as an adjunct to antidepressants that cause sleepiness, etc. Adderall, Vyvanse, etc. are very commonly Rx'd these days.
eytj57 wrote:
Deanouk wrote:
I am not being biased, I am being factual and realistic.
- Wheating's pbs are all inferior to Ovett's, despite having the advantage of being around 30+ years later with faster tracks, lighter spikes, etc.
-Wheating broke 3:35 twice! Ovett 20!
- Then there are all the medals and world records Ovett had.
-Their careers tell us about their talent and potential. Ovett is superior in all respects: speed, endurance, tactical ability, etc
-One swallow does not a summer make!
Funny how you chose to respond to the other post, not to:
"Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport."
Would you care to?
Thank you.
Err!?
I did reply to exactly that post!!
Deanouk wrote:
eytj57 wrote:
Funny how you chose to respond to the other post, not to:
"Why unbelievable? He didn't say Wheating had a better career.
Can't we agree that Ovett had better talent than Cacho and yet never broke 3:30?
Stop being so biased. You have great knowledge of the sport."
Would you care to?
Thank you.
Err!?
I did reply to exactly that post!!
Cacho clean?
Deanouk wrote:
Coe ... should have run at least 3:29.0 that day. Maree, a previous WR holder at the distance and a sub 3:30 runner finished 3.5 secs behind. If the track was dodgy, then why didn't he run much fatser? Or Scott, who finished down the field?
In 85, in perhaps his best season, Aouita was on WR schedule at 800m for the 2000m in Rieti, yet missed it by 3 secs! Why squander a WR opportunity on a track that was somehow dodgy? He also only managed a 3:32 high in 87 there.
The difference between Rieti and Monaco, is that the former was the scene of a few great individual performances in random distances on an old (at least up to the late 80's) synthetic track at the peak end of the season, whereas the 'super fast' times on the Monaco track came in the last decade on a top of the range Mondo track that just wasn't around in the 80's. In addition, almost everyone entering the races (over 1500m at least) at Monaco in early July, usually a month away from when they want to be at a peak for major champs, regularly ended up running about 2 secs faster there than anywhere else ALL season.
Who was the better 1500m runner with the best credentials out of Steve Ovett or Andrew Wheating?
Both ended their careers with similar pbs (3:30.77 v 3:30.90).
Ovett ran his on the Rieti track in 83, solo for more than the last lap and way in front of anyone else, while Wheating ran his on the Monaco track coming 4th in 2010. Now ask yourself who was aided most by the surface/track they were running on?
What on earth has Andrew Wheating to do with this question?
A few great performances?
World records at 100m, 800m, 1000m, 1500m, 1 Mile, 3000m, 1 Mile women at a small meeting at the end of the season in an half open stadium in front of a few hundred spectators!
Looking little bit more specific just at the mens 800m:
- 6 of the top 29 times all-time (Zürich and Brussels both have 2)
- the years fastest in 1986, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1996, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
- in 6 more years (1983, 1992, 1995, 2000, 2004, 2007) a top 10 performance
- in all 25 of the years top 5 performances between 1986 and 2011
Rieti didn't had these mass finishes we have seen in the last years in Monaco. But Monaco in the middle distances has had many times the by far best line-up of the season in one of the biggest meetings of the season. Not at all comparable to the normal fields in Rieti at the end of season. The times from Rieti should be considered as sceptical as those from Monaco from the last few seasons.
Why not every athlete sets always some record in Rieti? They are not machines. Maree always was very inconsistent, for example. Maybe a 3:29, 3:32,3:33 finish in Rieti would have been a 3:31, 3:34,3:35 in Zürich? It's obvious that there have been very favourable conditions in Rieti. Obvious for everyone who is not blinded by some bias.
Morceli in 1993 over 1 Mile:
10th June Oslo 3:47.78
27th August Berlin 3:46.78
3rd September Brussels 3:47.30
5th September Rieti 3:44.39
a list of thletes with 800m lifetime personal best from Rieti:
Wilfred Bungei (1:42.34), Alfred Kirwa Yego (1:42.67), Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (1:42.86), William Yiampoy (1:42.91), Boaz Lalang (1:42.95), José Luis Barbosa (1:43.08), Mehdi Baala (1:43.15), Benson Koech (1:43.15), William Tanui (1:43.30), Adam Kszczot (1:43.30), Nixon Kiprotich (1:43.31), Philip Kibitok (1:43.55), William Wuyke (1:43.54), Robert Kibet (1:43.66), Khadevis Robinson (1:43.68), Atle Douglas (1:43.69), Andrea Longo (1:43.74), Edwin Kiplagat Melly (1:43.81)
There are many more.