Someone already made the point that people might feel bad and sympathize with rape victims and thus would be more supportive of abortion in that case. You're right, that doesn't logically make sense if you believe that abortion is murder and that's because it's based on emotion and not logic. That also doesn't mean that everybody who's only for abortion in the case of rape/incest just wants to punish women.
So if you can accept that most women who are raped don't want to be pregnant and can sympathize with them getting an abortion, then why can't you accept "don't want to be pregnant" as a valid reason for an any abortion?
Also, what level of scrutiny are you placing on these rape victims? Would they be required to prosecute their rapist, or would you just take their word?
It's all so flawed, just let women who are living their own lives with a myriad of different circumstances govern themselves.
The court ruled it is not a protected right at the federal level. States now decide what is legal.
My position is that I would rather a person consult with their family, doctor, and religious leader or religious community if they have one and then decide for themselves what is the best course of action.
For both practical and moral reasons, I don't want the state mandating this type of decision, at least for early in a pregnancy and I would weigh the health of the woman over a fetus.
There are millions of Americans many who are devout who agreed with Roe. It is mostly a Christian extremist view that personhood with all protections should begin at conception.
So if you can accept that most women who are raped don't want to be pregnant and can sympathize with them getting an abortion, then why can't you accept "don't want to be pregnant" as a valid reason for an any abortion?
Also, what level of scrutiny are you placing on these rape victims? Would they be required to prosecute their rapist, or would you just take their word?
It's all so flawed, just let women who are living their own lives with a myriad of different circumstances govern themselves.
+1.
Yup, it's a great line of reasoning.
1) You're a disgusting person if you are such a pro-life absolutist that you won't want a raped woman to abort.
2) When they quickly say "oh no, I'm ok with that" you point out that they've now made a judgement call and must trust women (gasp) to make the appropriate choice.
3) Suddenly these loonies find themselves as abortion moderates, accidentally.
Also if you are so confident of popular support for Roe, you should be totally comfortable with Dobbs because the populous pro-choicers will just reinstate Roe one state at a time or federally in one swoop, right? What’s to cry for you? (None for me.)
I cry for the women who will be hurt in the meantime. I think we will legislate mostly legal abortion, but it could take another 20-30 years to get the right candidate and political climate.
Oh, so maybe it’s not that popular or as important as your polls assert after all coz if it were, people would immediately vote for the abortion candidate, so maybe your virtue signaling tears with high value on Facebook and twitter are in vain in the real world.
I also should add we should provide cheap and easy access to contraception. If society wants to decrease the number of unplanned pregnancies, offer cheap contraception and get rid of the idea of trying to shame people from having sex.
People who have decent social skills and are half way decent looking are going to have sex.
I cry for the women who will be hurt in the meantime. I think we will legislate mostly legal abortion, but it could take another 20-30 years to get the right candidate and political climate.
Oh, so maybe it’s not that popular or as important as your polls assert after all coz if it were, people would immediately vote for the abortion candidate, so maybe your virtue signaling tears with high value on Facebook and twitter are in vain in the real world.
Yeah, clearly everyone believes that the ballot box is the ultimate readout of popular opinion. January 6th proved that!
You may not care, doesn’t mean other men don’t take fatherhood’s responsibilities seriously.
This bloviation doesn’t prove what I said to be wrong, and it isn’t.
Of course it is. The pain of labor is the only undesirable cost not borne by the man, but that is an altogether healthy and normal part of female life and insignificant in the bigger picture of parenthood. Many responsibilities in all animal forms are unequally shared by the sexes.
If you really make it all about the gestation and labor, then surely you must be okay with the state paying off the woman for her 9 months of part time “labor”, right? It has a cost and the cost is small compared relative to normal life. Everything else about parenthood is shared between both parents.
Oh, so maybe it’s not that popular or as important as your polls assert after all coz if it were, people would immediately vote for the abortion candidate, so maybe your virtue signaling tears with high value on Facebook and twitter are in vain in the real world.
Yeah, clearly everyone believes that the ballot box is the ultimate readout of popular opinion. January 6th proved that!
Neither here nor there blather. Go live in an undemocratic state then.
This bloviation doesn’t prove what I said to be wrong, and it isn’t.
Of course it is. The pain of labor is the only undesirable cost not borne by the man, but that is an altogether healthy and normal part of female life and insignificant in the bigger picture of parenthood. Many responsibilities in all animal forms are unequally shared by the sexes.
If you really make it all about the gestation and labor, then surely you must be okay with the state paying off the woman for her 9 months of part time “labor”, right? It has a cost and the cost is small compared relative to normal life. Everything else about parenthood is shared between both parents.
Let's see
1) Risk of injury or death beyond simple 'pain'
2) Severely limited mobility and energy during pregnancy
3) Discrimination in the workplace due to pregnant status
4) Delay/derailment of career from pregnancy and infant care
5) Permanent changes to body after pregnancy
More responsibility and risk = more rights. It's very simple.
Appeals to nature and history don't work.
E.g. You have been unable to get a date with a woman for years. Does that mean that you should accept that as an altogether normal and healthy part of your life? No! We all want to see positive change.
Yes, pro-life absolutism is certainly a morally and intellectually defensible position. If you mock them, you will pay the price at polling booths.
Incorrect. Pro-life absolutists are a small part of the electorate. Any polling tables will show you this.
Small parts of the electorate handed your ass to you back in 2016. And it doesn’t change the fact that that is a morally and intellectually consistent position irrespective of whether one agrees with it. Women don’t have a problem saying yes to this straightforward statement.
Yeah, clearly everyone believes that the ballot box is the ultimate readout of popular opinion. January 6th proved that!
Neither here nor there blather. Go live in an undemocratic state then.
Claiming that election results are good readouts of popular opinion on single issues is stupid. Abortion is not #1 in most people's minds -- nothing wrong with that... life is complicated.
Saying that election results properly mirror public sentiment on [relatively minor issue X] is just bad quantitative reasoning.
I already responded to this silliness yesterday and the day before. Go jump. And acquire browser search (find on page) and reading comprehension skills and then come back.
Fairly standard: when pressed to actually take a stand behind their reprehensible beliefs, these guys just deflect, distract, and weasel to the nth degree.
I’ve spelt out my position very clearly many times and it’s for anyone to see in this thread. Your tactics are just distraction and shrill virtue signaling.
Incorrect. Pro-life absolutists are a small part of the electorate. Any polling tables will show you this.
Small parts of the electorate handed your ass to you back in 2016. And it doesn’t change the fact that that is a morally and intellectually consistent position irrespective of whether one agrees with it. Women don’t have a problem saying yes to this straightforward statement.
The 2016 election had nothing to do with 'a small part of the electorate.' It was a relatively diverse array of swing voters who won it for Trump. Good point that the electoral college does allow outsize effects from a small number of voters... not very democratic. Likewise, a small number of Democratic operatives were able to win the election for Biden by stuffing ballot boxes. Never underestimate the power of the few!
Your position is consistently morally and intellectually reprehensible. I'll give credit where it's due, my man, at least it's almost coherent.
I do not have the time nor am I in the mood to dig up racist quotes from Margaret Sanger. As a racist woman, M. Sanger wanted to reduce the global Black population. Many racist Democrats today feel the same. Your ability to dig up quotes from Blacks 100 years ago who had partial agreement with Sanger is irrelevant. I partially agree with 99% of the people. Partial agreement means nothing. Science is prevailing. Women do not have legal authority to kill a 2 plus pound person inside them. Just like no parent has the legal authority to kill a 20 pound 3 year old person in the care of an adult. Your side lost and will continue to lose. You can cry about on this site or you can proclaim to move to England with Billie Joe Armstrong.
Terminating a pregnancy when the fetus is 2 lbs is extremely rare - and only legal in a handful of states or for the life of the mother.
If you are going to accuse people of focusing on hyperbolic examples you should not use them to make your points either.
Two plus pounds is in the 4 to 6 month range. Are you stating abortions after 4 months don't occur? Four to six months because we do not if the little person will be 5'0" or 7'0" as an adult.
Democrats, when you get together in private sure must be mad at each other. Democrats brought this on Democrats. When Democrats had the votes in Congress to make federal abortion laws, Democrats chose not to.
Fairly standard: when pressed to actually take a stand behind their reprehensible beliefs, these guys just deflect, distract, and weasel to the nth degree.
I’ve spelt out my position very clearly many times and it’s for anyone to see in this thread. Your tactics are just distraction and shrill virtue signaling.
ITT: you never spelling out your position because you're embarrassed how icky it is. I'm praying for this cognitive dissonance to resolve itself.
Fairly standard: when pressed to actually take a stand behind their reprehensible beliefs, these guys just deflect, distract, and weasel to the nth degree.
I’ve spelt out my position very clearly many times and it’s for anyone to see in this thread. Your tactics are just distraction and shrill virtue signaling.
Anyone that repeatedly says “I’ve made myself clear” despite many people asking for clarification should maybe realize that maybe they are not so clear.
Think of it as an opportunity to show us again how smart you are!
Of course it is. The pain of labor is the only undesirable cost not borne by the man, but that is an altogether healthy and normal part of female life and insignificant in the bigger picture of parenthood. Many responsibilities in all animal forms are unequally shared by the sexes.
If you really make it all about the gestation and labor, then surely you must be okay with the state paying off the woman for her 9 months of part time “labor”, right? It has a cost and the cost is small compared relative to normal life. Everything else about parenthood is shared between both parents.
Let's see
1) Risk of injury or death beyond simple 'pain'
2) Severely limited mobility and energy during pregnancy
3) Discrimination in the workplace due to pregnant status
4) Delay/derailment of career from pregnancy and infant care
5) Permanent changes to body after pregnancy
More responsibility and risk = more rights. It's very simple.
Appeals to nature and history don't work.
E.g. You have been unable to get a date with a woman for years. Does that mean that you should accept that as an altogether normal and healthy part of your life? No! We all want to see positive change.
Blather blather and more blather. They’re all normal because most women have children and may with some small probability go through all of that for reasons unrelated to abortion law.