Just did a 10x3 min workout today trying to use Garmin power. 6 mph (~10 km/h) wind from the south. My 3 min reps are odd number N->S, even number S->N (not going to do bother with a 180 turn on a 3 min rep).
Garmin power failed miserably. I was targeting something like 410 W and to match effort according to HR, I needed go about +25 W into headwind and -25 W with tailwind (~435 W into headwind, 385 W with tailwind). I overcooked an early rep and wound up running a bit more conservatively, but reps 9 and 10 are a great example:
Rep 9 (6 mph headwind): 6:15 pace, average HR 160, max HR 168, average power 426 W
Rep 10 (6 mph tailwind): 6:06 pace, average HR 159, max HR 168, average power 375 W.
I knew it was fubar from rep 2 (6 mph tailwind): 5:35 pace, max HR 171, average power 407 W.
I've turned off the "account for wind" setting and will do wind pace adjustments manually from now on. I do intend to to continue to see if Garmin power is useful for the elevation adjustments. From what I can tell, it should be more responsive than GAP.
That's actually not quite true because speed does not have a linear relationship to drag. The best pacing for a headwind/tailwind is generally higher wattage into the wind and then lower wattage with a tailwind. That being said, you can do some simple modeling with websites like bestbikesplit and use power to pace the race perfectly.
How come it's better to put more power going into the headwind than tailwind? I would've thought that putting more power into the headwind is less effective given the cost is non linear with velocity and you're going even further into the extreme. On the other hand, since you're going a little faster you'll reduce your time exposed to the headwind. It's not clear to me which effect is more important or if I'm missing something else.
It's a bit counterintuitive. Basically, because your ground speed is low into the headwind, you spend a longer amount of time in that section versus a relatively shorter amount of time at a higher speed with a tailwind. A smaller increase in speed for a longer time in the headwind is usually worth more than a larger increase in speed for a much shorter time in a tailwind.
I think aponce is one of the better posters. I do find I hugely disagree with a couple of his Reddit posts, where he says NSM isnt great for a marathon. A significant number of people now PBd using it, all seemingly seasoned marathoners.
He is a big power guy and I know is a fan of Pallandino , who is "selling" NSM plans for the marathon, that don't necessarily like up with the philosophy.
I think aponce is one of the better posters. I do find I hugely disagree with a couple of his Reddit posts, where he says NSM isnt great for a marathon. A significant number of people now PBd using it, all seemingly seasoned marathoners.
He is a big power guy and I know is a fan of Pallandino , who is "selling" NSM plans for the marathon, that don't necessarily like up with the philosophy.
Thank you! Not dogging him, it just seemed Floberg (not even the real floberg probably) was randomly dogging him.
Will try NSM for marathon down the road but want to get the basics down first. 3E-3ST-1 LR or off. Rinse and repeat.
I'm just wowed that nobody really stumbled upon this training method before sirpoc. Sure there may have been men/women who did volume loading and did some "steady" runs but nothing as regimented (?) as what sirpoc started doing in 2023. Discovering something like this in the '80s or '90s could have helped American running make a breakthrough earlier, vs. high intensity, low volume, etc.
I think aponce is one of the better posters. I do find I hugely disagree with a couple of his Reddit posts, where he says NSM isnt great for a marathon. A significant number of people now PBd using it, all seemingly seasoned marathoners.
He is a big power guy and I know is a fan of Pallandino , who is "selling" NSM plans for the marathon, that don't necessarily like up with the philosophy.
Thank you! Not dogging him, it just seemed Floberg (not even the real floberg probably) was randomly dogging him.
Will try NSM for marathon down the road but want to get the basics down first. 3E-3ST-1 LR or off. Rinse and repeat.
I'm just wowed that nobody really stumbled upon this training method before sirpoc. Sure there may have been men/women who did volume loading and did some "steady" runs but nothing as regimented (?) as what sirpoc started doing in 2023. Discovering something like this in the '80s or '90s could have helped American running make a breakthrough earlier, vs. high intensity, low volume, etc.
Imagine Bob Kennedy on NSM. Love that guy.
This so called NSM is nothing for elite runners who has all day to train and recover proper. I hope you understand this?
Thank you! Not dogging him, it just seemed Floberg (not even the real floberg probably) was randomly dogging him.
Will try NSM for marathon down the road but want to get the basics down first. 3E-3ST-1 LR or off. Rinse and repeat.
I'm just wowed that nobody really stumbled upon this training method before sirpoc. Sure there may have been men/women who did volume loading and did some "steady" runs but nothing as regimented (?) as what sirpoc started doing in 2023. Discovering something like this in the '80s or '90s could have helped American running make a breakthrough earlier, vs. high intensity, low volume, etc.
Imagine Bob Kennedy on NSM. Love that guy.
This so called NSM is nothing for elite runners who has all day to train and recover proper. I hope you understand this?
Correction; elite runners have all day to train and recover proper.
I think aponce is one of the better posters. I do find I hugely disagree with a couple of his Reddit posts, where he says NSM isnt great for a marathon. A significant number of people now PBd using it, all seemingly seasoned marathoners.
He is a big power guy and I know is a fan of Pallandino , who is "selling" NSM plans for the marathon, that don't necessarily like up with the philosophy.
Thank you! Not dogging him, it just seemed Floberg (not even the real floberg probably) was randomly dogging him.
Will try NSM for marathon down the road but want to get the basics down first. 3E-3ST-1 LR or off. Rinse and repeat.
I'm just wowed that nobody really stumbled upon this training method before sirpoc. Sure there may have been men/women who did volume loading and did some "steady" runs but nothing as regimented (?) as what sirpoc started doing in 2023. Discovering something like this in the '80s or '90s could have helped American running make a breakthrough earlier, vs. high intensity, low volume, etc.
Imagine Bob Kennedy on NSM. Love that guy.
As mentioned in the very first post of this thread, it was Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen who ran 3 subT days, 3 easy days and a LR, back in 2021. It's all on Strava
Thank you! Not dogging him, it just seemed Floberg (not even the real floberg probably) was randomly dogging him.
Will try NSM for marathon down the road but want to get the basics down first. 3E-3ST-1 LR or off. Rinse and repeat.
I'm just wowed that nobody really stumbled upon this training method before sirpoc. Sure there may have been men/women who did volume loading and did some "steady" runs but nothing as regimented (?) as what sirpoc started doing in 2023. Discovering something like this in the '80s or '90s could have helped American running make a breakthrough earlier, vs. high intensity, low volume, etc.
Imagine Bob Kennedy on NSM. Love that guy.
As mentioned in the very first post of this thread, it was Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen who ran 3 subT days, 3 easy days and a LR, back in 2021. It's all on Strava
Indeed ... and also training like that is common place in cycling, so nothing new
But the thing is .... Not many paid attention to KI until Sirpoc mentioned copying him with great success in post 9 on that first page
It's the old "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around ...." saying.
To be fair .... Sirpoc did popularize MSN both by being open and sharing and also by backing it up by doing the walk and not only the talk ... Now it has culminated with his book.
The internet is littered with intellectuals that claim to be experts .. but we've been lucky to have had someone genuine for once in Sirpoc and he tends to be quite humble about it unlike so many others :)
I think this is why this all works so well. I've read the excellent book and basically it's stripped down to work from the bottom up. As in, a man who has a job, a life, a limited amount of time - what would be the best balanced training but also with the most amount of progress.
Will NSM work for woman too ? Only ever read testimonials from dudes.
I think aponce is one of the better posters. I do find I hugely disagree with a couple of his Reddit posts, where he says NSM isnt great for a marathon. A significant number of people now PBd using it, all seemingly seasoned marathoners.
He is a big power guy and I know is a fan of Pallandino , who is "selling" NSM plans for the marathon, that don't necessarily like up with the philosophy.
I used one of Palladino's marathon plans for Chicago, specifically his level 6 plan, running 8 times across 6 days. I do not plan on using that plan for my next marathon and I certainly do not support his recent effort of selling NSM plans.
Curious about the validity of 7x 75-90 min easy runs. Typically, these will yield a 50-60 load for me, respectively. 350-420 weekly load.
On the flip, doing vanilla 320-340. Hypothetically, I'd be able to stack more load, and total volume would obviously be higher.
My question, is would this be more beneficial for someone who is specifically extremly aerobically underdeveloped, but has some speed (me)?
After giving it some thought, this is how I am planning on structuring my original thought process, alongside the rationale for it.
In the spirit of the thread and key themes from sirpoc, I still mainly want to emphasize that volume, load and consistency will be the main drivers of my plan. Starting next week, I am planning on 7x easy runs. Starting at 60 min per run and increasing 1 minute on each run each week, so I can safely build (7 min/week, for 24 weeks).
My main target race is an October marathon, so I'm giving myself 6 months of monotonous, progressive easy volume until I can implement the marathon block specified. I plan to do a time trial or race of primarily aerobic nature every 4 weeks to see where I am at.
As for my reasoning:
1) I am currently dealing with a lingering dysfunctional glute that flares up duirng intensity work/races (yes, even sub-T). Easy volume, it is unaffected, which gives me a chance to increase my strength training volume to address it.
2) Intensity has always had a place in my training diet, mostly in the form of true threshold, VO2 or raw speed work. Not once in my training have I done a true easy base, especially towards the 8+ hours/week range. This is what I'm hoping to change moving forward, as I think it's a major gap in my own personal training history.
This is NOT a recommendation to follow this plan nor is it a suggestion as a better alternative. This is merely something that I think as an individual, addresses my current needs better for my future goals. Looking forward to where this gets me.
Baseline times in the last 3 months: 4:52 Mile, 17:46 5k, 29:13 8k.
Targeting a half in March/April, my PR for the distance is 1:27:46.
Will NSM work for woman too ? Only ever read testimonials from dudes.
That's a legitimate question. There's lots of evidence of sex-linked differences in the molecular responses to exercise. This is one of the (many) questions that MOTORPAC was intended to address.
We tested the hypothesis that AMPK activation and peroxisome proliferator gamma coactivator 1 alpha (PGC-1α) expression are not augmented as exercise intensity (power output) increases from maximal to supramaximal intensities...
If nothing else, the optimal frequency, intensity, and/or duration of the "sub T" intervals could be different in women vs. men (or older vs. young individuals, etc.).
As you say, " subT's" have been used in successful running too since many decades ago.The only difference they weren't called " subT's" and in most cases the best runners supplemented them with faster paces too.
As you say, " subT's" have been used in successful running too since many decades ago.The only difference they weren't called " subT's" and in most cases the best runners supplemented them with faster paces too.
Right, if anything what sets the current craze apart is what it doesn't regularly include, which is training at "supra T" intensities.
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