How come no talk of Drew Hunter not delivering on his expectations as an athlete? Seems he's not taking this as seriously as he could and is not going to make the Olympics, which is a massive blow to adidas. Has too many self-imposed distractions. He makes me truly appreciate Rupp and Centro.
Flaw in the sport wrote:
Tinman has now learned what McMillian, Hadley, Shea, Hudson and numerous other have learned in the last decade with tried and failed teams. You can not make a living coaching elites and sub-elites without a specific and sizeable contract and team sponsored by a major shoe company.
It takes too much time coaching them to have other full-time employment and there is no money in it to do as a career.
Tinman Elite wanted all Schwartz’s time and not share it with other pursuits he needed to do to earn a living but wouldn’t it couldn’t pay him a living wage for that time. Familiar sad story.
You're assuming the egg came before the chicken here. We don't know if the reason Drew and TME were paying Tinman what they paid him because he would not commit to full-time coaching/giving up coaching on the side, or if Tinman was willing to do that but couldn't because Drew and TME refused to pay him a reasonable wage. By all accounts, Tinman is stubborn and set in his ways, so it wouldn't surprise me if he wanted to continue working with his other clients on the side and Drew and TME decided that decreased level of commitment wasn't worth more money but we don't know.
I haven't seen anything here to indicate one way or another (i) why Drew and TME paid Tinman the wages they did to the extent such wages were below market and (ii) why Tinman continued to work with - and take on more as time went on, it sounds like - clients on the side that necessarily took away attention that he could be giving to Drew and TME. Perhaps (ii) resulted from (i). But perhaps (i) resulted from (ii). Or they are not related at all.
God of Wine wrote:
How come no talk of Drew Hunter not delivering on his expectations as an athlete? Seems he's not taking this as seriously as he could and is not going to make the Olympics, which is a massive blow to adidas. Has too many self-imposed distractions. He makes me truly appreciate Rupp and Centro.
Because as much slander as there is this really isn't true.
He isn't a world beater or a US beater YET.... but he is 23 and has shown some pretty big flashes of promise (13:17, world team). He is solid and has time.
ScumbagElite wrote:
any truth here wrote:
This is actually FALSE. If Tinman provided value, Drew Hunter would have paid him more. Tinman just didn't have the knowledge or expertise to be a full-time pro coach. He was a high school coach in over his head.
Plus Tinman's priorities are all messed up. Why the hell was he working on his doctorate degree in the buildup to an Olympic year? That was costing him money (tuition). Why was he coaching a middle school team? That doesn't pay anything either.
I think the main issue is COVID. He’s probably extra busy right now because he is finishing up his doctorate and has many deadlines. If COVID had not pushed the olympics an extra year then he wouldn’t be finishing up his doctorate during an Olympic year but the year after.
It takes more than 6 months to get a doctorate degree, he was doing it in 2020 as well. Probably 2019 too. Getting a doctorate degree is itself a full-time job for many years.
He's been neglecting his athletes for a long time. He knows some science but he doesn't know how to be a coach.
any truth here wrote:
ScumbagElite wrote:
I think the main issue is COVID. He’s probably extra busy right now because he is finishing up his doctorate and has many deadlines. If COVID had not pushed the olympics an extra year then he wouldn’t be finishing up his doctorate during an Olympic year but the year after.
It takes more than 6 months to get a doctorate degree, he was doing it in 2020 as well. Probably 2019 too. Getting a doctorate degree is itself a full-time job for many years.
He's been neglecting his athletes for a long time. He knows some science but he doesn't know how to be a coach.
.
Going back to at least 2017, based on what he said publicly at a meeting I attended. A fast track Ph.D. is 3 years, 4-5 is more typical. Take courses, plan research, and take comps ;1-2 years, research and writing 2-3 years, defense and wrap up 6 months. Some of this can be concurrent.
college guys wrote:
2. Drew is only one to possibly make a team. In fact, as of today, no other Americans in the group are qualified for the Olympic Trials. This is “sub-elite” as the window has been open since SP ‘19.
Sydney qualified for the trials when he ran 13:22, keep up mate
any truth here wrote:
ScumbagElite wrote:
I think the main issue is COVID. He’s probably extra busy right now because he is finishing up his doctorate and has many deadlines. If COVID had not pushed the olympics an extra year then he wouldn’t be finishing up his doctorate during an Olympic year but the year after.
It takes more than 6 months to get a doctorate degree, he was doing it in 2020 as well. Probably 2019 too. Getting a doctorate degree is itself a full-time job for many years.
He's been neglecting his athletes for a long time. He knows some science but he doesn't know how to be a coach.
I think this assessment of Schwartz nails it.
He obviously knows his science and how to apply this knowledge to workouts for his athletes and customers.
....This is not the same thing as having coaching skills
His style seems to work for younger athletes whom he coaches remotely and he doesn't actually interact with in person. This is probably ideal too because these HS & MS athletes have a school coach and teammates they need to be with and compete with for most of their time anyways.
In attending one of his seminars, he comes across more like a professor who is a little ackward socially and doesn't have that socially adept skill set for which to deal with young adults or mature adults. Coaches like Wetmore, Smith, Smith, Smith, Vin Lanna, Johnson, etc have this skill and that's why they get the utmost respect from their athletes year after year.
Tinman for all of his knowledge, is better suited to consulting elite athletes or working with young athletes through their parents or coaches.
FWIW, Jack Daniels was much better at the running science than he was at actual coaching too.
God of Wine wrote:
How come no talk of Drew Hunter not delivering on his expectations as an athlete?
Did you read the thread??
My daughter has one of these on her hs team. Trains separately. Never a part of the team. Anti-social. Basically a primadonna.
personality speaking wrote:
FWIW, Jack Daniels was much better at the running science than he was at actual coaching too.
This is a solid point
personality speaking wrote:
any truth here wrote:
It takes more than 6 months to get a doctorate degree, he was doing it in 2020 as well. Probably 2019 too. Getting a doctorate degree is itself a full-time job for many years.
He's been neglecting his athletes for a long time. He knows some science but he doesn't know how to be a coach.
I think this assessment of Schwartz nails it.
He obviously knows his science and how to apply this knowledge to workouts for his athletes and customers.
....This is not the same thing as having coaching skills
His style seems to work for younger athletes whom he coaches remotely and he doesn't actually interact with in person. This is probably ideal too because these HS & MS athletes have a school coach and teammates they need to be with and compete with for most of their time anyways.
In attending one of his seminars, he comes across more like a professor who is a little ackward socially and doesn't have that socially adept skill set for which to deal with young adults or mature adults. Coaches like Wetmore, Smith, Smith, Smith, Vin Lanna, Johnson, etc have this skill and that's why they get the utmost respect from their athletes year after year.
Tinman for all of his knowledge, is better suited to consulting elite athletes or working with young athletes through their parents or coaches.
FWIW, Jack Daniels was much better at the running science than he was at actual coaching too.
Jack Daniels pretty much invented a new field of exercise science and published countless peer reviewed and highly cited papers on it.
Tinman may be a "scientist", but other than his PhD with questionable credibility, he hasn't really ever done any science.
True at my daughters hs too. Apparently, when parents believe they had elite level talent they went over coaches head to district AD and got permission for their daughter to be coached "virtually". Not knocking the talent, it's definitely there, but I always get the us vs her vibe at meets and watching practices.
low wages, hence, need to internet coach a lot of people, hence, less time for personal coaching even the elites.
xczvzxcv wrote:
low wages, hence, need to internet coach a lot of people, hence, less time for personal coaching even the elites.
Low wages? In January 2021 he had two teams in person in Boulder. Safe bet of 25 in person athletes. Then take the 5 or so elite HS on TME Jr. An extremely safe bet is another 20 more online clients. Thats 50x200 a month. $10,000 a month is $120,000 plus Hunters "teacher salary". He is conservatively making $150,000 a year if not closer to $200,000+
That's a pretty comfortable income. Not to mention that his running camp is $995-$1,095 per athlete and is already full.
Parsec wrote:
rojo wrote:
When we contacted Tom initially, he asked us to not publish it as he said that's what the Tinman guys wanted to do but this was too big of a story to keep quiet. Threads kept popping up so I said we had to publish something.
Really? I think Tom is a fantastic coach and as a fellow father feel for him personally. Dismissals like this are the perfect embodiment of some the negative aspects of modern society. There is no job security. You ask a guy with a wife and kids to move states to coach you and don't give him a long-term contract? That rubs me the wrong way. Of course, Tom should have insisted on it before moving but that's pretty cut throat if you ask me.
That being said, I totally get why Drew might wonder if it's the coaching. He isn't as good as we hoped he'd be coming out of HS but after he ran 13:17 in crappy spikes last December, I figured he had a decent shot of breaking 13:00 in super spikes this summer.
But when I first heard of this last week, I said to Jonathan, "Please name one athlete other than Mo Farah who has run way better after switching coaches mid-career."
And the other guys seem to be flourishing. To be honest, most of the guys on that team aren't top pro talent so I haven't paid that close atention to them but it seems like a ton of the guys have been improving a lot.
Jeff Thies -Didn't break 14:00 in college. Now has run 13:32.
Sam Parsons - 344/803/1352 at NC State. 13:22/7:43/3:37 under Tinman.
Reed Fisher - 28:48 to 28:12 and 61 :37 in the half.
That's big time improvement.
I would have preferred to have seen Drew depart the group and Tom keep the rest of the group. That would have been the perfect outcome in my mind. I know one thing - Tom 100% should get to keep his own damn name. I think it's wrong for them to continue to use his name.
Solid argument.
This makes it appear as if Tinman had wanted a contract but was denied. The TME statement quoted in the first post refers to an "original coaching agreement". It's got to be a written contract as it's hard to believe that Hunter's agent, parents (both former runners and coaches themselves), or adidas would have approved otherwise.
Trackfan55 wrote:
college guys wrote:
2. Drew is only one to possibly make a team. In fact, as of today, no other Americans in the group are qualified for the Olympic Trials. This is “sub-elite” as the window has been open since SP ‘19.
Sydney qualified for the trials when he ran 13:22, keep up mate
Thanks “mate” aka Johnny Gusman aka Jordan’s Gusmans brother. Spend less time painting your nails, dying your hair, running your mouth and more time training lmao.
spokane xc wrote:
I haven't seen anything here to indicate one way or another (i) why Drew and TME paid Tinman the wages they did to the extent such wages were below market and (ii) why Tinman continued to work with - and take on more as time went on, it sounds like - clients on the side that necessarily took away attention that he could be giving to Drew and TME. Perhaps (ii) resulted from (i). But perhaps (i) resulted from (ii). Or they are not related at all.
Why Tinman would need to shift focus outside of the elite group if they were only paying him X amount.
https://bit.ly/3e41eaTTo my next point I am not sure why the Boulder area continues to be a hot bed for people to live and train. It is over expensive, over crowded and there would be better elevation in many other parts. They shouldve bought a cheap house in a remote location and just gotten down to business. But no, insert Drew's wine drinking and limited intelligence and you have an answer.
Tiny Chang wrote:
spokane xc wrote:
I haven't seen anything here to indicate one way or another (i) why Drew and TME paid Tinman the wages they did to the extent such wages were below market and (ii) why Tinman continued to work with - and take on more as time went on, it sounds like - clients on the side that necessarily took away attention that he could be giving to Drew and TME. Perhaps (ii) resulted from (i). But perhaps (i) resulted from (ii). Or they are not related at all.
Why Tinman would need to shift focus outside of the elite group if they were only paying him X amount.
https://bit.ly/3e41eaTTo my next point I am not sure why the Boulder area continues to be a hot bed for people to live and train. It is over expensive, over crowded and there would be better elevation in many other parts. They shouldve bought a cheap house in a remote location and just gotten down to business. But no, insert Drew's wine drinking and limited intelligence and you have an answer.
Boulder’s a desirable place to live. But if you’re there just to run, it’s rough. Generally it’s not that great for anyone making less than six figure (minimum). The real estate there should appreciate well for the Hunter family. Check other retired pro runners in boulder and many of them have homes easily worth over a million
nice ancedote wrote:
xczvzxcv wrote:
low wages, hence, need to internet coach a lot of people, hence, less time for personal coaching even the elites.
Low wages? In January 2021 he had two teams in person in Boulder. Safe bet of 25 in person athletes. Then take the 5 or so elite HS on TME Jr. An extremely safe bet is another 20 more online clients. Thats 50x200 a month. $10,000 a month is $120,000 plus Hunters "teacher salary". He is conservatively making $150,000 a year if not closer to $200,000+
That's a pretty comfortable income. Not to mention that his running camp is $995-$1,095 per athlete and is already full.
if he is just recycling the same plans for everyone with very little contact it seems reasonable he had a lot more online clients than that too. there have been dozens that posted personal accounts in this thread.
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